+15 points for the upgrade to the Hero not the FW pack.

Yeah from what you mention the Grey Hunters seem a little awkward. One of the previous SW lists had them with Plasma guns at 15cm range. Should that be returned to the formation perhaps? I'll check the codex tonight to see what other weapons they can be armed with and see what stands out (other than the PGs).

Just out of interest, what are the epic stats for Melta guns?

There are no official stats, but adding MW to the unit's FF ability is the standard. So like a multimelta without the ranged shot.

Ahh good to know thanks Zombo.

Are people interested in having Melta guns for Grey Hunters? Matt...? It might drive up the cost on Grey Hunters, which I'm not keen on. What are people's thoughts?

Heavy Weapons are the field of the Long Fangs so I don't think I'll be giving MLs to the grey hunters

MW to the basic FF stat came only up with Eldar Firedragons where the whole squad is armed with them. IIRC Grey Hunters can only have two Meltaguns.
If you give Grey Huters a MW FF basic attack is suggest a FF of 5+.

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I would have thought that melta guns were more a a Salamander kind of thing, also making them better at firefight (as opposed to CC) just feels a bit wrong to me.
I still say go for Long Fangs as upgrades to Grey Hunters, killing two birds with one stone (Long Fang spam and lack of Grey Hunters).

That echos my thoughts.

Morgan Vening

same here. I'd go 2 Long Fangs for 150pts to begin with (without the formation wide Leader ability too).

so, the Hero upgrade for the Fenrisian wolves is 65pts?

No, the EA wolf upgrade for Heroes is 15 points instead of 10 points as it was previously.

right, got it

Actually Melta guns are a Grey hunter thing too. The codex lets them take MGs, Flamers and PGs.

So you guys are happy to have a large SM formation with minimum 12 units to begin with before we even contemplate Razorbacks? I'd rather not strip out GHs from the fm to replace them with LFs if I can avoid it.

Happy to go the upgrade if people prefer it, just makes the LFs a bit dull in terms of their fluff IMO.

I'm not a fan of huge marine formations; ATSKNF becomes disproportionally good on large formations.

Yes, this is my point. I'm fully aware of this issue and I'm not so sure the additional LFs to GHs is such a great idea. As menioned I don't like the replacement idea either.

Matt and Morgan, I fully understand your view on GHs but what is your reasoning behind your views on the LFs? Is it because they die easily? Are they completely OTT? What's the issue with the no-leader Leader ability?

Cheers

The problem with the no-leader Leader, is that firstly, it doesn't appear it's paid for (50pts for +1 AP/+2AT is something I'd pay). The second is the ridiculous levels of BM needed to suppress, turn to turn. Yes, a Devastator Squad with a character does the same thing, but you change the dynamics of the formation when you're required to pay for the character, including paying for stuff that may not be useful.

Then there's the Long Fang Spam. While I know Tacticals tend to be meh in the core list, that doesn't mean they should be in the specific lists. As it stands, Matt's "1GH + XClaw + X+1LF" list seems to be the way it'll happen.

And those Claws will be Sky or Swift, because BloodClaws are priced out of reasonableness. Same cost as Grey Hunters, worse Init, worse FF. Same cost as SkyClaws, worse movement. Skyclaws lack Rhinos, but move as fast without them, meaning the tradeoff is +2 crap Units vs Unhindered.

The biggest problem I see with Grey Hunters vs Long Fangs is that Grey Hunters suck so much in comparison. The main reason for Grey Hunters seems to be ThunderHawk Assault, which SkyClaws are better at (Initiative not being a factor, there).

As for the Long Fangs, there's also a fluff background issue I have. The background I've read tends to suggest that the reason for the increase in per capita Heavy Weapons, is the heavy decrease in Marine numbers. Looking at Lexicanum, I see the following.

"Each squad is unique in that it doesn't ever receive reinforcements, making the higher level squads smaller in number compared to the lowest Blood Claw pack. Many Blood Claw packs start with as many as fifteen marines. However, losses take their toll, and by the time a Blood Claw squad reaches the level of Grey Hunter, normally only 9 or 10 are left. As they age, further losses limit the squad sizes of Long Fangs down to just 5 or less."

Not sure how accurate that is with the current fluff (GW retconning is my major pet peeve), but if accurate, that means that a BloodClaw Formation is 2 packs, a Grey Hunter Formation is 3 packs, and a Long Fang Formation is 4 packs. Compared to the 2/3/2 of standard Marines. It's already heavy disproportionate without taking into account LFSpam.

Morgan Vening

You could equally well say the same about any other marine chapter, I just don't see it as one of the space wolf 'traits' that an epic list should reflect, it works for the Salamanders and gives them a 'thing' the wolves already have a ton of things, and don't need yet another imho.

Can I ask why not the replacement idea? One of the things I struggled with (however briefly) was the fixed SW formations, they're more of a 'warband' than a codex chapter (where the infantry formations more-or-less reflect company structures) so why wouldn't Long Fangs, Grey Hunters and even Blood Claws be fighting together? Being able to swap a few stands in and out via upgrades seems to me to give a more representative feel whilst keeping the formations relatively small.