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[Units] Attack Bikes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=17782		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
So, with the recent "ThunderBike Assault" games that have occured in my battle space, some questions about Attack Bikes have come up:

1) Are they allowed to be transported as "bikes" in Thunderhawks, etc?  Would they take up a single space or two?

2) Should they be mounted infantry instead of LVs?

I don't recall seeing many Attack Bikes used in any Marine army, so, what are people's thoughts on them?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
They're effectively a downgrade from the normal Bike unit (statwise, in becoming LV) and so aren't all that appealing.

You can add one to a formation to add a BM-laying capability, but you wouldn't bother with more than that.

Making them mounted infantry wouldn't match the pack sizes GW sells, so shouldn't be considered IMO.

Technically by RAW it can't be carried in a Thunderhawk, but that's obviously an accidental oversight in the rules.
Author:  Dave [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
I play them with the 35cm NetEA change. I usually field 2 of them in with 3 bikes so I can lay a BM here and there. I don't feel they're overly vulnerable being LVs, a formation of 5 might have more of problem there though.

Haven't transported them in a THawk, but I should think that 1 attack bike would equal to 2-4 bikes in size at most. I'd allow them in.
Author:  alansa [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
What E&C said.

I take one with my bike formation - just to lay a blast marker. Instinct tells me though that they're not worth taking even if they cost -10 points. I still take one though, just for fun.

They would certainly work better as as mounted infantry - 3 or so to a base is certainly reasonable, but there's the 'artificial' consideration that E&C pointed out about the way GW package them.

Naturally they should be transportable by Thunderhawks. Officially you can't (though I've tried some legerdemain on these forums to argue that a RAW reading is not as clear cut as all that!)
Anyway, ask your opponent before hand and I think in most instances I'm sure they they won't mind.
Author:  Chroma [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
So Hena, any thoughts on this?
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
Quote: (alansa @ Jan. 29 2010, 16:53 )

Naturally they should be transportable by Thunderhawks. Officially you can't (though I've tried some legerdemain on these forums to argue that a RAW reading is not as clear cut as all that!)
Anyway, ask your opponent before hand and I think in most instances I'm sure they they won't mind.

Quote: 

Notes: Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Transport (may carry eight of the following units: Space Marine Tactical, Assault, Devastator , Scout, Bike, Terminator or Dreadnought units. Terminators and Dreadnoughts take up two spaces each.)


And it's not all that clear cut. It depends on interpretation. Is an "Attack Bike" a Bike unit. Would a Land Raider Crusader be considered a Land Raider for purposes of a Landing Craft?

As to the actual concept, if three bikes can fit into a single 'slot', and a Dreadnought is able, I don't see why not. Though I'd probably make it a twofer. So you could still put up to 3 Attack Bikes in, without problem. And heck, if people want to put Attack Bikes into their army, let them.

Morgan Vening
-Seriously, I'm not as anal with the rules when it comes to actually playing. Honest!
Author:  alansa [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
Yes that was what I was arguing, that an Attack bike is a kind of bike and therefore transportable. It's not a very strong argument though - EA doesn't use of this kind of generalisation much and is usually more to sloppy writing than anything else
I mentioned the Predator as an example.

An 'official' Errata / Change would clear things up. A separate entry in the transport options list would be clearest, with Attack Bikes taking up 1 slot in my opinion.


As to the Mounted Infantry option: Speed 35, 3 * Heavy Bolter, FF 3+ CC5+, may upgrade one bike unit for +? points. Does that make em salivatingly more desirable?
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
Quote: (alansa @ Jan. 29 2010, 17:24 )

Yes that was what I was arguing, that an Attack bike is a kind of bike and therefore transportable. It's not a very strong argument though - EA doesn't use of this kind of generalisation much and is usually more to sloppy writing than anything else
I mentioned the Predator as an example.

An 'official' Errata / Change would clear things up. A separate entry in the transport options list would be clearest, with Attack Bikes taking up 1 slot in my opinion.


As to the Mounted Infantry option: Speed 35, 3 * Heavy Bolter, FF 3+ CC5+, may upgrade one bike unit for +? points. Does that make em salivatingly more desirable?

The thing is, it's not really a Bike. If they'd call it an Attack Trike (It has three wheels!), there'd be no confusion. I could accept 1 slot. It's not a biggie either way.

I don't think a Mounted Infantry option is feasible. As E&C said, it's not really worthwhile with the current packaging. Which is a shame, I've got something like 20 of the blighters.

But, from a purely theoretical perspective, I'd go with 2xHeavy Bolters, and make them two per base, their bulk being too big to put three, IMO. Still, does screw things up from a purely background logistical perspective. 2 bikes per base + 1 Attack Bike = 10 men (1 Squad). The current 'official' one is 14 men. Your suggestion is 18 men. Mine 16.

Anyways, that's why my Marine Bikes are 2per. Fluff (and financial) considerations being foremost. That, and I don't like the big cavalry bases.

Morgan Vening
Author:  alansa [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
you're right, 2 * heavy bolter is better

basing rules state that mounted infantry must have between 2 - 4 models on the base, so you could put extra Abikes on a base if you wanted to but few people would choose to do so
Author:  dptdexys [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
@ alansa
The attack bike has been added to the transportable units in the Epic-UK marine lists so is allowed at their tournaments.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
Quote: 

One of the big contributing factors to this conundrum IMO are the far superior Bike and Landspeeder alternatives for the same points. All three of these units really need to be worth the same, currently the Attack Bike doesn't! compare!

Agreed. If they'd have packaged the multi-melta sidecar with the bike formations, then they'd probably be okay, but noo, it had to be a Heavy Bolter.  :glare:


As a way to balance the unit, I guess making it infantry  does probably work, you'd end up with something like:

Infantry (2 attack bikes per warmaster sized base to be the "standard" size)
Speed 35cm
2x Heavy Bolter

As a formation of only attack bikes, then you end up with 10x AP5+ shots, which would probably be fine and balanced.

But yeah, that breaks away from the pack sizes sold by GW...
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 31 2010, 16:12 )

I dunno about Attack Bike. 2 * bolter and it's still kinda inferior to Tornado. Multimelta vs Speeder and lost again.

Tornado has LV status as a drawback, which is vaguely equal to lack of skimmer and an AT attack for the infantry Attack Bike.

Ish.
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  [Units] Attack Bikes
I think changing them to mounted infantry with two heavy bolter shots a stand would be an excellent idea – just stick in the notes a brief mention that a stand they can be represented by 1-3 attack bikes and base the stats on there being 2, if anyone is that bothered about having 2 they can always pick up an extra pack of Epic40k attack bikes from ebay anyway.

Quote: 

Hena: I dunno about Attack Bike. 2 * bolter and it's still kinda inferior to Tornado. Multimelta vs Speeder and lost again.


At least they’d be less inferior? More likely to be taken occasionally then, whereas at the current stats I don’t think I’d ever use them, which is a pity as I have a loads of models for them.

Adding a LV to a formation is a bad idea as they’re vulnerable to AT then and a single heavy bolter shot is not worth comparable points to the Land Speeder Tornados – I say change these as well in your current round of updates :agree:
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