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BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
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Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Yes the 30 degree Grand Master matches up tot he 145 degree Librarian! The battles bent, but what can you do.

Since I now have pdf reading ability again I've had a look at BL's version and I though I'd stick a comparison up.

The two lists development seem to be BL's original version, then a new version with little in common based on the new codex.
As I thought BL's first attempt was rather good I used the same base version then adjusted it a bit, then adjusted it again following Epic UK's release.

Special rules
We have the same Intractable rule that BL thought up.
I have the Teleport Homer rule, made into a special rule to help the unit notes section.

Characters
We have the same stats (i.e. they get fearless)

Units
Deathwing
I have BL's old version with 1 assault cannon, BL has 2. I think 1 is better as it keeps the cost down and that something marine armies really have to watch.
Deathwing land Raider
Same bar transport. BL has 1 deathwing terminator stand, I have 1 of any infantry stand. I prefer teh latter as it increases army list and scenario flexibility without it being just a fearless land raider.
Mortis Dreadnought
I think we have the same stats, bar BL having a cut and paste problem.
Deathwing Dreadnought
Something only I've got. Its the fearless dred that I think is the equal to the mortis and always a free choice between the two.
Predator
Something only I've got, based on having models for it, following a DA theme and replacing the inferior Destructor. Plus making it tie in with the infantry some what.
Tacticals
Same idea, different stats. My 30cm 5/5 is done to be balances with a standard missile launcher so can be swapped with no trouble. The boost in AT makes up for the drop in range and the devs are left as the mainstay longer range infantry.
BL has 30cm 4/4 slow fire, a much different propasition. I'm not in favour of it as it increases the ability to land and fire as opposed to drive around and increases their assault ability (double, fire, assault being better with 4+) so would need more testing and points changes.
Ravenwing
Here we have three different approaches. Epic UK went for jinking from their previous iteration, mixed with larger mixed formations that can't air assault, forcing them to the ground with the land speeders. They have though teleport homers to bring in the deathwing.
BL has a very different approach, making the Ravenwing the best early turn assaulters from turn 2 onwards, ensuring if the formation rallies it can attack with no blast markers. I'm not sure though if this was the intent. They also get scout.
I've read allt he fluff and think that basically given these are the DA's fast attack troops they are as good as the other chapters and hunting the fallen etc can be achieved with their current stats. This also ensures they con't have to worry about being very expensive and becoming unusable. I've given them the teleport homers as I think they are nifty and cover the background well enough.
Ravenwing bikes
The same bar the special rules - teleport homer for me, scout and leader for BL
R Attack bikes
Same again bar the special rules as the bikes.
Land Speeders
I have no special rules but the assault cannon (its a heavy plasma gun really) and heavy bolter vs BL's heavy bolter and leader.
Ravenwing Land Speeder Tornado and Typhoon
Dropped from my list as it already has variant fast attack choices and these are somewhat redundant given their weapon fits and the ethos behind the ravenwing in my view.

Army List
Pretty similar. I shoe horn the word 'ironwing' in for old times sake as a varient to the vindicator upgrade (the pred is in there too).
BL has 1/4 allies (in practice 2 warhounds and 1 thunderbolt squadron as per the common tourney list) while I went the EpicUK route for zero. If you have some background, emphasise it!
Linked to that is the ability to more and cheaper hunters (as no thunderbolts for me). Though on reflection i think it should still be a 0-1 upgrade. Maybe.
The other big difference is the ravenwing formation. Where EpicUK has the fixed mix, BL has an 8 strong formation of bikes (presumably to best fit in a thunderhawk) and a 5 strong formation of land speeders (though with the changed weapon fit not sure what use they are intended for). The upgrades may also be a typo as you get to add two assault cannon free to the formation.
I've gone for a 6 strong formation so its a bit tougher than normal, that can be mixed and matched to the players desire.

Oh transport wise the various systems are codex, EpicUK and mine, which is a matter of taste more than balance.

I would hope BL would come in with his bits that I can edit into the above.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
I can give you resonings and consessions to your bits where we differ :)

Deathwing Terminators: Well i can life with the fact that Deathwing Terminators loose one Assault Cannon for gaining Fearless.

Deathwing Land Raiders: Technically DW LR can transport everything but practically and fluff wise they are dedicated transports to the Terminators and so would only transport them

Mortis Dreadnought: Yes a copy-paste problem  :whistle:

Deathwing Dreadnought: Technically each Dreadnought will be old enough to be a member of the Deathwing. In fact all Characters are but obviously not all join the 1st Company. So all Dreadnoughts should  get Fearless or none. Nut remember that it is rare that a Dreadnought retains his abilities he had before intered in the sarcophagus. For example Chaplain Dreadnoughts are very rare and there are no Librarian Dreadnoughts. If you want a Deathwing Dreadnought just put a Character in it.

Caliban Predator: No fluff no rules in Wh40k so not in the list please.

Tacticals: If we get one unified and workable stat for Plasma Cannons then we will reach a consensus much easier here.

Ravenwing: Well giving the Teleport Homers i first percieved as to extreme. But then EpicUK included this and you too and i have changed my mind. I would drop Leader in exchange for the Teleport Homer.
But Scout i would leave because they have it in Wh40k and and act as scouts in the fluff.
The Ravenwing Land Speeder has "only" Heavy Bolters because it is the standard weapon outfit. Now with Multi-meltas on the Attack Bike i hope that those will be more desiring to field than Heavy Bolter Attack Bikes. But doniot be in competition to the Land Speeders (which are just better with Skimmer) the Land Speeders have Heavy Bolters.
The Upgrade should only be the Typhoon. The Ravenwing Support Squadron should be 4 Ravenwing Land Speeders and 1 Ravenwing Land Speeder Tornado.

Armylist: Well i can live with dropping Titans and Aircraft altogether and drop Hunter points cost in exchange.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
I do not play DA, however I will state what I see as a balance problem, and that is DA terminators are too cheap at 400 points.

These guys have Teleport ability, are fearless, and have the added benefit of making any upgrades that are with them Fearless. This is just broken at 400 points regardless of whether they have 1 shot or 2. Then you add the ATSKNF and you have a double dip of pain for the opponent. I cannot see how this force will be any fun to play against.

I think I have experience enough in this are to make such a claim working with an all Fearless list and then removing Fearless.

I will add this to the other discussion as well, because I think it is where it belongs.

Cheers......
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Ah and just remembered I replaced invulnerable save with fearless for the characters. Presumably that was instead of hiking the price to 75 points. Which then I proceeded to do anyway.

Not sure if it belongs in the other discussion as that is for one list in particular. My reply there is

I think we may be mixing up Dark Angels versions...

Quote: 

Yes. The fearless is there. Its not everywhere.

Buuuttt... theres no warhounds. Or thunderbolts. That is a massive disadvantage and both are fearless (after a fashion).

In use (yes I have a painted Dark Angels army. And Salamanders. And a thing about green clearly) they lack the same punch a traditional tourney army, but have longer staying power that doesn't rely on air assets.

Oh and the downside of hold is the range of the marines is 30cm mostly. Plus how often do people shift marines by breaking them?




Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Bar the no allies I just don't like the EpicUK Dark Angel take, I think it was the only poor list they put out. The Devs change I don't like as it optimises them for air actions. Cheap hunters are shamelessly stolen from you :)

The deathwing dred is just an attempt to balance with the Mortis dred so it stays a straight 1-2 choice.

The Scout thing is interesting. I don't think Ravenwing bikes should have scout. Yes they play peeky boo, but that doesn't translate to an ability in Epic to move and set up an instant 100cm screen across the table.

Likewise I think Jink should go to bring down the cost.

So why nothing special for the Deathwing, they are supposed to be fanatically over and above the regular marine due to them knowing the chapter is within a hairs breadth of total purging. Plus they have white armour :)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Surely its land/shoot/support with the Devs? Admittably 800 points for the package (hawk, dev dev) is pricy but I can't see them being used any other way bar maybe drop podding, anything else leaves them out of range turn one and firing once in a game is a bit poor for a shooty unit.
Author:  arkturas [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
This is what I think and I like aspects of both lists (but not EpicUK's). Anything not mentioned defaults to Generic SM.

Deathwing Terminators - Either Standard Marine Stats (inc 2x AC's) or with added Fearless and an appropriate points hike (although above 400pts is getting excessive for such a small formation)

Deathwing Dreads - Probably not required (Character upgrade is a great idea to represent these)

Deathwing Land Raiders - Again probably not needed.

Plasma Pred - I do have 2 pred plasma sponsons but I feel it isn't needed.

Tactical/Devs - If plasma is going in (not that it is a must have) then these two units should have the option and I prefer AP4+/AT6+ as the version to use followed by AP5+/AT5+ but not a slow firing version

Ravenwing - I like Scout and Teleport Homer as abilities (Bikes/Atk bikes only). Attack Bikes get MM instead of HB. 3 Landspeeder versions (HB, HB/AC and HB/Typ) all with Skimmer and Scout. Two formations
1) Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 6 Ravenwing Bikes ~250pts, may add 1-2 Atk Bikes +50pts each and 1-2 Tornadoes (HB/AC) +60pts each
2) Ravenwing Support Squadron - 5 Ravenwing Landspeeders (HB) ~200pts (HB is weaker than MM), may upgrade upto 2 Landspeeders to Tornadoes (HB/AC) +10pts or Typhoons (HB/Typ) +25pts

Allies - I haven't seen any information that DA and Navy/Titans refuse to work together. So in a nod to the more secretive nature the full range of ally options would be in but with a 1/4 restriction.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Deathwing - I think they can get by without any changes in the same way Veterans can get by without changes.  Sure, they are supposed to be a bit better than other chapters' Terminators, but that doesn't have to translate to actual stat changes.  I'm not convinced that Fearless and TSKNF would be balanced at 400 points, even with the reduction to 1 Autocannon.

Deathwing Dreads - Not needed for all the reasons many have stated.

Deathwing Land Raiders - If the Termies aren't Fearless, there's no need for them.

Deathwing Characters - I like the idea of Fearless instead of Invulnerable Saves for all the DA characters.

Mortis Dread - I'd like to see these be just another weapon configuration, so whatever it takes in terms of changing weapons/CC/FF to make it balanced against the stock configurations.

Caliban Pred - Okay if it can be balanced relatively easily.

Plasma-wielding Infantry - This is supposed to be more of a preference than an across-the-board TO&E change, so I think only one of the units needs a different weapon.  Either have standard Tacs and Plasma Devs or vice versa.  Either way would work as far as I'm concerned.

I'd prefer to keep the cannons the same as established EA stats instead of rebuilding them, even if that means they are somewhat different than 40K.  Personally, I'm not concerned about the 4/4 slow fire and I disagree with TRC about the utility in air assaults - the increase in alpha strike ability is offset by lower FF value and a turn of no fire.

Ravenwing units - I don't think these guys need to be any better than White Scars bikes and they should be a touch different.  I actually like the Invulnerable Save for that reason, even if there's not a 40K jink ability any longer.  Teleport Homer doesn't look like it is of much use (which Rug confirms) and it seems fiddly.  I'm not sure it's needed, even though it's the supposed signature ability.  Still, I'd be okay with the EpicUK stats.

Ravenwing formation - Right now I favor 2 Ravenwing formations, each with fixed composition and role - a scout/assault force and a support force.  Neither should be an air assault force so they should have configurations that are inconvenient for Thunderhawks.  They also don't need the numbers of the White Scars.  Something around 6 units for ~275 points would seem about right.  So, maybe... 4 Bikes + 2 Attack Bikes for the assault/scout and 6 Speeders for support, with appropriate upgrades for both.

Allies - Variant lists are supposed to represent preferred fighting styles, which for the DA would be no imperial allies.  However, if you do that they probably need access to more Hunters and/or THawk variant(s).  Without a total ban I think 1/4 or even 1/5.  Maybe 1/5 and improved access to Hunters could be a compromise.
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Quote: (Rug @ Sep. 24 2009, 02:22 )

Terminators are already the best of the best, deathwing arn't markably better.

Heresy!!!

DW are supposed to be the amazing Termies of the Adeptus Astartes. We only field veterans in TDA and/or as leaders. Ours 1st company trains Exclusively in them. making them a DA trademark and notably better. Therefore something should make them stick out even if its highly priced. Also as noted their painted differently, Bleached Bone not white.  :laugh:

Quote: 

This is what I think and I like aspects of both lists (but not EpicUK's). Anything not mentioned defaults to Generic SM.

Deathwing Terminators - Either Standard Marine Stats (inc 2x AC's) or with added Fearless and an appropriate points hike (although above 400pts is getting excessive for such a small formation)

Deathwing Dreads - Probably not required (Character upgrade is a great idea to represent these)

Deathwing Land Raiders - Again probably not needed.

I like keeping the same number AC's and adding points increase. Alternatively we could make an Assault variants that could be mixed with a formation also. Character upgrade is a nice touch. I may paint mine up as DW LR's but I don't think any differences really with standard DA ones.
Quote: 


Plasma Pred - I do have 2 pred plasma sponsons but I feel it isn't needed.

Tactical/Devs - If plasma is going in (not that it is a must have) then these two units should have the option and I prefer AP4+/AT6+ as the version to use followed by AP5+/AT5+ but not a slow firing version

Pred would be neat but I think its the least of priority. If we can't get the DW/RW and basic DA fluffly-ness in then why even bother with a variant most ppl don't know about.

I feel that the Tac's and Dev's should have the same weapons loadout. I agree with the AP+4/AT+6 or even MW +4 or +5. But we should name it differently or change the stat in all aspects as BL suggest in another thread. And salamanders have MM Tac's and Dev's so why couldn't DA have Plasma?

Quote: 

Ravenwing - I like Scout and Teleport Homer as abilities (Bikes/Atk bikes only). Attack Bikes get MM instead of HB. 3 Landspeeder versions (HB, HB/AC and HB/Typ) all with Skimmer and Scout. Two formations
1) Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 6 Ravenwing Bikes ~250pts, may add 1-2 Atk Bikes +50pts each and 1-2 Tornadoes (HB/AC) +60pts each
2) Ravenwing Support Squadron - 5 Ravenwing Landspeeders (HB) ~200pts (HB is weaker than MM), may upgrade upto 2 Landspeeders to Tornadoes (HB/AC) +10pts or Typhoons (HB/Typ) +25pts

I like most of the RW above except there should only be the "Tornado" option. Typhoons aren't really RW-ish and fluff wise a vanguard strike force is going to take a fully loaded speeder not one with one less weapon. They are pros not 8th company noobs driving after all. I also believe they should be able to use T-Hawks, well the attack formation not the support one. The base formation should fit but you can add on more bikes, A Bikes or speeders to make it a stronger detachment.

Quote: 

Allies - I haven't seen any information that DA and Navy/Titans refuse to work together. So in a nod to the more secretive nature the full range of ally options would be in but with a 1/4 restriction.

Its not that we wouldn't fight alongside them is just we generally do not as were secretive and paranoid. Also most forces don't want to support someone that might just leave in the middle of a battle because a Fallen Angel is a system away. I like cheaper Hunters and possibly the idea of 0-2 per formation. I would be okay with 1/5 Allies or 1/4 only Titans Allies as SM don't have any WE to throw out on there own.

BTW did anyone think about the Ares Land Raider Variant?

Just my thoughts...
Author:  vytzka [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Quote: (Angel_of_Caliban @ Sep. 25 2009, 15:11 )

DW are supposed to be the amazing Termies of the Adeptus Astartes. We only field veterans in TDA and/or as leaders. Ours 1st company trains Exclusively in them. making them a DA trademark and notably better.

Yawn.

Notably better? If I had a penny every time someone...

Sure, they're good. But they're not significantly better in the fight than Imperial Fists, Ultramarines or Blood Angels terminators. The suits are the same, so is top physical condition of Astartes, and Terminators are already there.

Fearless I'll give you, but stat boosts? No basis whatsoever.

Quote: 

BTW did anyone think about the Ares Land Raider Variant?

Please no Ares, it's uglity is eating my eyes!
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  BL/TRC Dark Angle lists
Quote: (vytzka @ Sep. 25 2009, 05:26 )

Notably better? If I had a penny every time someone...

You would be rich and mainly cause its true.

If you practice with something you get better at it. If you do everything in TDA then your better than a smurf that knows how to use is it but is usually in power armour.
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