Tactical Command
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Trim my SM force
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=16056		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Fortis [ Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Trim my SM force
I've recently recieved a large package of marines to round out my novamarines to essentially any size I want to make them. I'm looking to build this stuff up and sell off the excess. Can someone please give me some guidance in how to build the formations (character placement for example) and how many formations I'm likely to need. I'd like the option of latter on using some of the variant lists, mainly the Scions. I'd like to be able to build 3000-6000 point lists with plenty of tailoring available at the lower levels.

Firstly Character placement:

Am I right in thinking Tacticals should probably have Captains or nothing, Devs have Librarians, Assaults have Chaplains?

Should I build a character stand for a bike formation? Or are they not as useful?

What should I place in Terminator Formations? I'm thinking a Chaplain and a Captain in 2 formations currently.

Are there any other formations that need characters?

Next Duplicate Formations:
How many Terminator Formations should I keep? Is 2 the practical maximum for competitive lists? Or do people run 3 or 4?

Bike Formations? Any good? Any reason to have a second formation?

Land Raiders? I have a million of them, they aren't worth much to resell, will I ever field 4 formations, or is 2 or 3 more likely?

Scout Formations? Is 2 enough, or should I make 4?

Whirlwinds? 2 worth it? Do I need 3?

Thunderhawks? 2 or 3? Mainly thinking about how many in a competitive 3000 list with this choice.

Thanks, sorry it's so long.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Trim my SM force
Though certainly characters can be most effectively employed in certain formations (Devs make best use of the 3+ FF for Librarians etc), they shouldn't dictate your plan, but assaist it.

For instance you take two terminator formations. Most people slap chaplains inside and send them off like forlorn hopes. maybe instead you would want to use them in tandem. So the Librarian terminator formation shoots up the target, then supports the 2nd formation charging in, then provides support for an air assault and so on. Hell I've seen one with a Librarian teleported in to support two thunderhawk assaults on either side.

Likewise assaults normally pick up chaplains for air assaults, a loaded thunderhawk can have +2 to resolution that way. But you could be trying to use them as a swarm and want captains to co-ordinate the survivors attacks.

Likewise Devs with a chaplain get a definate +1 to resolution, instead of maybe getting a kill with a Librarian.

Tacticals I've seen with all three, the stat line supports any really.

Generally the order of frequency is
Chaplain (easy to use, good effect)
Captain (a tactical choice and often a hard one if you are running low on activations, normally replaced by a supreme commander in my experience)
Librarian (rarest, hardest to use as effectively as Chaplains)

Bikes benift most easily from Chaplains, but the stat line makes them similar to tacticals in that they can use all three.

Bikes incidentally are excellent, far better than assault marines that really need to be air inserted to be any good.

I've seen people jump titans with 3 formations. Generally 3 is the most as thats all a captain can take with him if you are thinking of teaming up.

Land Raider formations probably no. But if you are using EpicUK lists they are very good transports to have.

Scouts are the bees knees, I've seen aries that use them as the main troop type!

I can't imagine ever using 3 formation of whirlwinds.

Matts one of the best marine players, he regularily uses three.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Trim my SM force
Quote: (Fortis @ 04 Jul. 2009, 10:12 )

I'd like the option of latter on using some of the variant lists, mainly the Scions. I'd like to be able to build 3000-6000 point lists with plenty of tailoring available at the lower levels.

I would suggest writing out some theoretical army lists for any list you would like to play.

As an example, I did this with Salamanders and Scions because both feature mounted infantry and armor, especially LR variants.  I found that with the same set of models I could field 4500-5000 points in each army, depending on how they were organized.  Now I have a defined set of models to acquire.

I've done the same thing with other combinations of armies.  In addition to the Sallie/Scions combo, I organized these:

Codex/Blood Angel/Raven Guard (my home-brew RG list) - My Codex army is infantry-heavy and armor-light.  That means it fits with both the BA and RG lists.

White Scars/Dark Angels - White Scars bikes double nicely as Ravenwing.  Speeders work as good support for White Scars (Typhoons do a nice "counts as" for White Scars Tempests), and also as additional Ravenwing elements for DAs.  First Company Terminators with Transport for the White Scars double as Deathwing and Ironwing (for the old-skool people) for the DAs.

Am I right in thinking Tacticals should probably have Captains or nothing, Devs have Librarians, Assaults have Chaplains?

TRC gives mostly good advice.  However, I differ strongly on the Librarian.  I find Librarians's MWFF attack quite easy to use and take them liberally.  They are not the "sure shot" that a Chaplain's Inspiring is but you don't have to be in the assault for them to work.  Support fire uses the Librarians' abilities as well.

Should I build a character stand for a bike formation? Or are they not as useful?
Bike Formations? Any good? Any reason to have a second formation?

Quite useful.  Bikes are fast and cheap.  Even if they do not get to assault themselves, they support with 4+FF.  It's very easy to position to support an assault.  This is one of my favorite spots for a Librarian for that reason.

I usually take at least 3 fast attack formations for a ground marine force, consisting of either 2 bike/1 speeder or 1 bike/2 speeder.  4 fast attack formations is not out of the question.  Obviously, not every formation needs a character at that point, but a few scattered around can help at critical points.

Next Duplicate Formations:
How many Terminator Formations should I keep? Is 2 the practical maximum for competitive lists? Or do people run 3 or 4?

They are pretty good all around.  I've seen people run up to 3 in a tournament but 2 gives enough for a well-rounded and flexible force.

Land Raiders? I have a million of them, they aren't worth much to resell, will I ever field 4 formations, or is 2 or 3 more likely?

Probably no more than 1 formation unless you are taking Scions/Salamanders.  If you are taking those, however, I'd say you need 12-16 Land Raiders of varying types.

Scout Formations? Is 2 enough, or should I make 4?

Depends on what you want to do.  2 is enough for most armies, but you could occasionally make use of 3 or more so you might want the option.

Whirlwinds? 2 worth it? Do I need 3?

I've rarely taken more than 1.  I can't imagine you would ever need 3 unless you were running some sort of mega-battle.

Thunderhawks? 2 or 3? Mainly thinking about how many in a competitive 3000 list with this choice.

3 is probably the max you could field competitively at 3000 points.  I would say 2 are mandatory if you want some optimized combos.  A Thawk full of Devastators to land/shoot, followed by a Thawk full of Assault Marines to assault that target with all those Devs in support is truly frightening.  Sure, it's 1250 points before characters, but it will lay the smack down on huge, tough targets.
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