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Imperial Fists

 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:01 pm 
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So for some time i thought about creating a Siege themed Imperial Fists army. At last they are famous for laying and breaking sieges*.  :)  
For now i gather ideas and feedback to my ideas. This are only rough scetches whichi HAD to write down eventually before i forget them :laugh:
So no document with the actual army list yet.

So how could the list look like?
It was pointed out to me in my Iron Warriors thread that a list should be either a Offensive Siege list or an Devensive Siege list. And here lies the problem.
An Offensive Siege list will pe tailored to utterly crush armies like Baran and Mossinians but will have a very difficult time against other armies because of their focus on AP-weapons (Tanks aren't famous for sitting on top of fortress walls you know  :laugh: )
And Devensive Siege list will be played like Barans but with fewer but more expensive troops which actually don't care much about leaving their trenches because they have the same armour without trenches and other cover should be plentyful on the gaming table. But no DropPods, no Air-Assaults (they are defending not attacking).

So i think about actually combine this. In essence a siege laying army which is prepared for being attacked but also prepared to storm the enemy fortress.

So what should be in it? My list so far:
- Land Raider Crusader
- Land Raider Redeemer
- Siege Dreadnought
- Ironclad Dreadnought
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Tarantula
- Warlord Titan (Nemesis/Siege/Artillery Configuration): 2 Quake Cannons, Carapace Landing Pad and some other Carapace weapon. Speed 10cm, 7 Void Shields.
- Reaver Titan (Vandal/Ram/Siege/Gatebreaker Configuration): Power-Ram, Carapace Inferno Gun, some other Arm weapon
- Warhound Titan (Jackal/Siege Configuration) Inferno Gun and some other Arm weapon
- Thunderhawk CAS
- Fortifications** (Yes actual Fortification Walls and Bunkers with a 3+ Cover Save, no puny trenches. Space Marines are the elite. They will be tasked to defend the most importand sites so the fortifications there would be of a more improved standard. Likewise they semselfe will have more improved siege equipment available)

Things which will be gone:
- Thunderhawk Gunship (in a fortress/trenchsystem there is no room to land with a Thunderhawk, DropPods will be better due to their size and safe landing devices)
- perhabs Bikes
- perhabs Land Speeders

So this are only rough scetches and i hope i have made my point somewhat clear.
Any thoughts/ideas/comments on this?

*A role which GW seems to push the Salamanders into. Just look at the Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider Reedemer and the Ironclad Dreadnought. The only non-Ultramarines painted models are painted as Salamanders. And onthe release of the current Space Marine Codex the example army for a defensive Space Marine force where Salamanders (with White Scars as example for an assault themed army and ironically Imperial Fists as a balanced army  :laugh: )
** Could be forced to be placed in uninterrupted lines to show that it is actually a quality side the Space Marines are defending/holding. Or the spaces from segment to segment (which is 5cm, the same as Baran fortifications) could be threated as Rubble because of preliminary bombardment of the enemy.




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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:25 pm 
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I have many ideas about Imperial fists trot through my head with great regularity, however I lack playtesting opponents unless everyone starts to use vassel. Still I had managed to sort out a few of the problems. I figure them as an attacking siege force (defence just seems odd). Also no orbital assets - this is what marines do when they can't simply drop on or bypass fortifications - say the defences for a defence laser array.

But defence being odd and all - how would people do a defensive marine list?

Edit - oh and no warhounds - they don't get used surely for attacking fortifications being scouts and all. I would have thought a siege breaker warlord and an artillery support reaver.




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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:05 pm 
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Hydra Cordatus had a defensive Imperial Fists army. Ok the Iron Warriors still whiped them out but... :laugh:

Well ok no spaceships but aircrafts surely would be there. Exspecially bombers.

And a defensive Space Marine army would have a couple of Thunderfire Cannons, Tarantulas and Fortifications. Lotsof Tactical Detachments, perhabs bulked out with extra infantry (from reserve companies). One idea of me was to join two Detachments into a single Detachment to better remain operable (= unbroken) despite of casualties.

What would be a siege breaker Warlord? What should it be armed with? I repeatetly read that the Warlord is simply to slow and is better used as an Artillery Titan guarding the Blitz. So my proposal of the Power-Ram Reaver and the Artillery Warlord.

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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:38 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 01 Jul. 2009, 20:01 )

An Offensive Siege list will pe tailored to utterly crush armies like Baran and Mossinians but will have a very difficult time against other armies because of their focus on AP-weapons (Tanks aren't famous for sitting on top of fortress walls you know  :laugh: )

Woo, Imperial Fists. While I have absolutely no will to paint a second Imperial Fists army (having already lost all hope to finish my 40k force :)) ) I'm a great fan of their background. That said, a couple of nitpicks.

BlackLegion, you of all people here should know that Imperial Fists had really kickass rules in 40k 4th edition regarding anti-tank and anti-fortifications duties (Suffer Not The Works of Heretics trait - Tank Hunters option on Devastators and Tactical squads). There are also other pieces of fluff that suggest their anti-armor prowess which I'll quote if it's deemed necessary.

Also the idea of custom siege adapted Titans doesn't sit well with me but I can't articulate my reasons for that very well. Since Imperial Fists and various Titan Legions fought side by side in at least the Second Siege of Terra (during the Reign of Blood) there's probably nothing wrong with that.


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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:24 pm 
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In the latest Horus Heresy Books, I believe that the Imperial Fists are portrayed as a defensive Seige Force.

Was it not the Rogal Dorn who angered Perturabo by stating that he could hold a defence against the Iron Warriors that could not be broken?

It's been a while since I read that book....

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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:27 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 02 Jul. 2009, 00:24 )

In the latest Horus Heresy Books, I believe that the Imperial Fists are portrayed as a defensive Seige Force.

Was it not the Rogal Dorn who angered Perturabo by stating that he could hold a defence against the Iron Warriors that could not be broken?

It's been a while since I read that book....

It was, though their background material (Index Astartes as far as I remember) says they resort to defensive battles only when other opportunities are exhausted.

Rogal Dorn built the Imperial Palace BTW or at least the fortifications thereof.


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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:31 pm 
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But then all died attacking an iron warriors hotel?

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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:21 pm 
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Indeed, the Imperial Fists are a defensive(heresy!) specialist Space Marine Chapter.

I would not give them 'fortification trench lines', as as well as granting a 3+ cover save, that also makes the entire formation immune to Crossfire... really nasty when combined with Space Marine armour.


I could see the Imperial Fists working as some sort of an infantry-based ground-pounding army list, with some extra neat toys like the Thunderfire Cannon.

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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:14 am 
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I thought only bunkers made you immune to crossfire, not the trenches?

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 Post subject: Imperial Fists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:17 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 02 Jul. 2009, 00:14 )

I thought only bunkers made you immune to crossfire, not the trenches?

Fortifications make you immune to crossfire, and Black Legion said he wanted Fortification walls, not trenches, for a 3+ cover save.

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