ok so after 6 months of testing and talking with the guys i play against all the time (including a big conversation today), input/playtesting from Hena and Nealhunt (thanks guys) i've realised the V3.4 is overpowered and minor changes arn't going solve it.

so here we go:

1) Land Raider Crusader atm it's a no brianer over the normal one, as i see it there are two choices, first up the points cost to 125 each, this is if we want to keep the pintle melta, second in order to make it interchangeable in points cost with the normal LR we lose the melta (this is the one i favor)

2) Thunderhawk Transporters in the BT list at 200 ponits are way to cheap, i'll be uping the points to 275 for two at the minimum, maybe 300 but i'd like to playtest it first.

3) Neophytes are to good for the points because not only the effect they have on the min/maxing options for Crusader formations but also the interactions with ATSKNF and larger formations, changes:

- switch the way the upgrade works, instead of 25 points per stand, add 4 stands to a Crusader formation for 150 points.

- make ATSKNF not apply to Neophytes, this does bring up lots of different problems and would need a special rule to work, but is very fluffy.

- Neophytes shouldn't be able to use drop pods, it's way to good with large formations.

4) Neophyte Bikes are too cheap, not sure that 50 points each is a good idea, but they need something.

5)Emperor's Champion go's back down to 50 points

so what do people think?

Edit: forgot EC points decrease

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1) Land Raider Crusader atm it's a no brianer over the normal one, as i see it there are two choices, first up the points cost to 125 each, this is if we want to keep the pintle melta, second in order to make it interchangeable in points cost with the normal LR we lose the melta (this is the one i favor)

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You want to apply all three changes?

- Fixing the upgrade to a set size (4) is good as it stops min/maxing.

- Having ATSKNF not work for Neophytes could work, but may bring up issues.

- Neophytes should of course be banned from using drop pods (unless they're allowed in 40k?).

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As Neophyte are always in the same formation as Crusaders why shouldn't they use DropPods?

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because in V3.4 for 500 points plus strike cruiser you could have 12 stands (6 Crusader and 6 Neophyte) including a character drop podding onto your enemys objectives,  that formation would need 24 BM's to break it, thats a hard thing for any army to do.

but if some of the changes go through it's may not be as bad and it's just an idea  

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LRC - agreed.

THT - I'd say the LRC might contribute to this.

Neophytes - Are they really as good point-for-point as normal SM Scouts (4 for 150)?  If so, can you explain the synergies that make that true?  Have they been a problem in formations of 8, i.e. 6 Crusaders/2 Neophytes for a Thawk or THT load?

What makes the Drop Pod Neophytes too good?  Most people seem to think that the tradeoff between losing Deathwind barrages and larger formations is okay.  Is the problem that you have a single, large formation so you can retain with most of the drop load before the enemy can react (unlike the more typical multi-formation drop)?

I would avoid mixing TSKNF and non-TSKNF troops unless you can think of a really elegant way to handle it.

Neophyte Bikes are definitely not worth 50.  Normal bikes are only 40 points each.  Even the White Scars bikes with Walker and better stats than Neophytes are not worth a full 50.  That said, I could see where 35 is too little, especially when you count in the advantages of TSKNF with formation size.

If you're going to set a fixed upgrade size for Neophytes, maybe a fixed upgrade size for the bikes as well?  Maybe 4 for 150 or 175.  That's around 40 points per unit.  Even granting them a premium for a formation size/TSKNF interaction, they shouldn't be much more than that.

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1) Land Raider Crusader atm it's a no brianer over the normal one, as i see it there are two choices, first up the points cost to 125 each, this is if we want to keep the pintle melta, second in order to make it interchangeable in points cost with the normal LR we lose the melta (this is the one i favor)

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Fair enough. Will this effect other armies that use the Transporters?

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Fair enough. Will this effect other armies that use the Transporters?

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So you are basically saying the reason a Crusader is better than a regular Land Raider is the Multi Melta Mr P?

By that logic then if we added the MM to a normal Land Raider they would be on par?

Ok, its not logic at all, but at the same time its perhaps a hint that the big reason is its a 4+RA transport that can carry 3 stands/2 stands instead of 2/1. So its half the cost to mechanise the terminators and 2/3's to mech say terminators. Everything else is a bonus. Ok, maybe not but thats the key thing for the crusader. The weapons fit then complements that and then you bring in the THT which is an assault transport for tanks. If you are using such a thing then there is a synergy there you don't have without. Compare say 3 THT's carrying three land raiders full of tacticals. But these Land Raiders have all the crusaders weapons fit. Compare to 2 THT's carrying crusaders stuffed full of tacticals. maybe to make it a fairer comparisn it should be two land raiders with crusader weapons carrying devs vs 2 crusaders carrying tacticals. maybe I'm rambling as I can't sleep but the question is what here is important, the weapons fit or the relative costing for transport spaces?

Further what would you rather have on the ground, a formation of 4 crusader or 4 land raiders? Then what in the air (then what in the list).
Is there actually any sense in a stand alone formation of assault tank crusaders?

But still I find it hard to believe one 15cm MW shot and making one FF5+ attack MW is worth 25 points.

2) Thunderhawk Transporters in the BT list at 200 ponits are way to cheap, i'll be uping the points to 275 for two at the minimum, maybe 300 but i'd like to playtest it first.

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THT - I'd say the LRC might contribute to this.

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The THT is a fine kettle of fish. Probably easier to do in fixed size formations in lists without crusaders! It is essentially air assault with post assault mobility on the cheap. A way of inserting skirmish forces rather than half the battle company.
Currently a Landing Craft is needed to transport mechanised terminators. EpicUK sticks that as 1050 points with space for assault marines. A list with crusaders and THT's can do it for how much? Is the extra stuff worth the difference, especially at 3000 points and an aim of often around 10 formations of one type or another?
How about the classic Thawk attack, assault and dev, in they go. How should that be costed a similar amount to a formation of devs with their rhinos for movement?
And finally the classic LC and 2 tacs vs 3 THT's and 2 tacs. Is that comparable? (In the BT list 2 sword brethern have a choice of a LC at 375 points or 3 THT's for 375 as well? Is it a straight comparable swap?)
But yes, crusaders don't half alter what you need for what!
It also of course splits risk, stopping criticals ending the game (like a fully laden Landing craft crit does).
The upshot of all that is I never think you will get it spot on and should aim high rather than for the bullseye (promising note that)

Emperors Champ

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I've extensively tested the EpicUK LRC and it is a viable option in the list without being a must-have unit. I've tried it successfully (and disastrously) with devs, termies and tacs with its FF attacks and increased transport balancing out its lack of ranged attacks

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Remember Pulsar that a Multi Melta does not give an extra attack, it just makes the base attack FF. So a Land Raider with a Multi melta would get FF4+/FF5+ depending on whose tournament you were in.

And we are supposed to have stats that can be used in several lists. For instance an Imperial Fists siege force would use Crusaders ont he ground. Keep altering their stats because this list has a THT balls it up for them and at this rate they will end up with Spartans.

I see what your saying about making sure to compare things in the right way but I also have to take the use of them in the context of the list as a whole, and yes 4 LRC ground pounding isn't worth it, but are normal LR?

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Remind me on the EpicUK stats?

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