Tactical Command
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Blood Angels v2.05
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=15834		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
V2.05 changes:

- Reduced ‘heavy support’ land raider upgrade to +1 land raider instead of +2.
- Removed ‘scout’ from Land Speeder Storm
- Made Land Speeder Tornados a ‘free’ upgrade
- Increased Furioso Dreadnought from 50 to 75pts
- Land Raider Crusader removed
- Removed the ‘snipers’ option for Scouts
- Allowed the Death Company to use Dreadnoughts
- ERC Land Raider Redeemer stats adopted.
- Base cost of Death Company comes down by 25pts.


I've still got my eye on the 'Fast Attack' upgrade for Tactical formations.
Author:  vytzka [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 10 Jun. 2009, 16:37 )

V2.05 changes:

- Reduced ‘heavy support’ land raider upgrade to +1 land raider instead of +2.

I like this. Four land raiders are a bit much on an infantry formation.

- Increased Furioso Dreadnought from 50 to 75pts
That sounds fair. These are good!
- Land Raider Crusader removed
Grumble.
- Removed the ‘snipers’ option for Scouts
I like this.
- Allowed the Death Company to use Dreadnoughts
Yay!
- ERC Land Raider Redeemer stats adopted.
Makes sense.

Also you forgot to list price break on Baal Predators (or typoed the price in the army list :D )
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
The price decrease was intentional, the lack of documentation a mistake. :)
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
From Rug on the previous thread:
As I see it all the weaker/ less popular formations have been cut and reintroduced as very good upgrades! On top of this entirely new choices have been added. My concern is that without maditory DC something else will have to be changed to rebalance.

What are you comparing it to?  The basic rulebook or the Codex list with NetEA/EpicUK/French ERC kinds of changes?  The weaker/less popular formations on the Codex list have been improved in all the fan-based versions.  This BA list is intended to be compared against those, not the book.  Not having access to those formations is a real restriction on flexibility.

As an example, SMs aren't great at taking on hard targets.  They have relatively little MW and AT.  The BA list means no AT formations of LRs or Annihilators (which should be attractive under the revised lists), amplifying that weakness.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
The 'attached tanks' style also contains a hidden weakness, that of less activations.

If you have the same ammount of tanks & men on the table in the Codex and Blood Angels lists, the BA's will have less activations as all their tanks have been folded into the infantry formations... this is a significant balancing mechanism.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
Rug:

I prefer my lists to be slightly underpowered during development instead of overpowered, that way if a noob comes across it and tries using it he won't be put off Epic because it is an 'auto win' army list. I also find it easier to spot problem units in the army list if it's underpowered, as opposed to overpowered army lists which tend to display cross-synergies so it's often harder to find the underlying problems.

So basically I find it easier to balance the army list if we start from a cautious position and build the power slowly upwards where nessesary.

As to your specific points:

- Assault Marines @ 275pts; I'd like to test them at this price, and drop later if they're not attractive enough.

- Furioso Dreadnoughts @ 75pts; With their 3+ armour save they're really good, but if they're not good enough for the price I may boost their CC stat to 3+.
Author:  vytzka [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
I'll try and get a game tonight using this, if I don't happen to get invited to an unexpected party :grin:

One small question. Are you allowed to take two identical Heavy Support options for the same formation? Gut feeling says yes but it looks slightly ambiguous (to my non-native English at least).
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
Quote: (vytzka @ 11 Jun. 2009, 12:19 )

One small question. Are you allowed to take two identical Heavy Support options for the same formation?

Yes you are.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 11 Jun. 2009, 12:37 )

Quote: (vytzka @ 11 Jun. 2009, 12:19 )

One small question. Are you allowed to take two identical Heavy Support options for the same formation?

Yes you are.

I had the same question, so this should probably be made more clear.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
Anyone fancy proposing an alternative wording?
Author:  vytzka [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
"Any two of the following options (duplicates allowed)" would be clearer though not very elegant.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
0-2 heavy support
Choose one of the following.
Edit that doesn't work, makes it look like 0-2 for the whole army.
Instead
Heavy support
Choose 0-2 of the following options.

Furious dreds - I've come round to the view its better to write 'two power fist, +2MWCC attacks' rather than 2xpower fists, +1MWCC

You have called attack bikes assault bikes, generally the names should match for upgrades and upgrade options.

Death company. 1 per 1000 is very awkward. Why not just have to 0-1 or 1 death company choice for either a fixed size (if 0-1) or variable but not based on any army size?
Failing that 2 added per 2000 points or part thereof would be a lot better (so 4 in the average game!).
Currently at size three it just means the only option is in a thunderhawk with a bike formation.
Edit - sorry just realised its 1 plus :)

Its not armeggedon and if you want to make the BA a bit harsher making it 4 thunderbolts for 300 is tough. Though saying that I'm not sure with an assault army being low activation.

Another thing you can do to make life harder (if you want) is to add the hunter into your heavy support selection.

Dreadnought wise do you think its an idea to drop the assault dreadnought as the furious takes its place?

Whats the reason for the 600 point mechanised terminator formation? Think it can be that cheap? Not worried about air assaulting it or taking 3 formations in a list?

(Still think the crusader is a better choice for an assault list, especially as you can add vindicators and baals to a formation already.)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels v2.05
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 11 Jun. 2009, 14:28 )

Furious dreds - I've come round to the view its better to write 'two power fist, +2MWCC attacks' rather than 2xpower fists, +1MWCC

Yeah so have I, even though mechanically it works it makes it more approachable for newbies.


You have called attack bikes assault bikes, generally the names should match for upgrades and upgrade options.
Typo.

Death company. 1 per 1000 is very awkward. Why not just have to 0-1 or 1 death company choice for either a fixed size (if 0-1) or variable but not based on any army size?
Failing that 2 added per 2000 points or part thereof would be a lot better (so 4 in the average game!).
Currently at size three it just means the only option is in a thunderhawk with a bike formation.
In 3000pt games you get 4 Death Company units, not 3.


I had been mulling over an idea that perhaps the death company units could be split up and added to other formations ala the Siege Engineers?
Obviously the Special Rule would need to change.


Another thing you can do to make life harder (if you want) is to add the hunter into your heavy support selection.
Interesting thought.

Dreadnought wise do you think its an idea to drop the assault dreadnought as the furious takes its place?
Nah, they fill different slots (pure CC/ mixed CC & range/ pure range).

Whats the reason for the 600 point mechanised terminator formation? Think it can be that cheap? Not worried about air assaulting it or taking 3 formations in a list?

I'm not too worried.

If it turns out too cheap then the Land Raiders upgrade can go up in price a little, but I'd really like to avoid non 25pt point margins so the 'heavy support' Land Raiders might go to '175pts for two Land Raiders' at the same time.
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