Tactical Command
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'Fluffy' Marine lists
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=15726		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Ginger [ Sun May 31, 2009 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
Guys

While bemoaning the omni-present "air-assault" marine lists, what should a "fluffy" ground pounding list actually contain?

Some seem to think it should be a mixture of Tacticals and Devastators with very limited numbers of Bikes or Land Speeders while the rulebook also suggests that all Bike / Land Speeder lists can be appropriate to the 6th and 7th companies respectively. The omni-present Terminator squads are only available to the 1st company while Scouts (of which there seems to be an unlimited number) are only to be found in the 10th company, and apparently do not get Rhinos or Razorbacks! Nothing is actually quantified for artillery or armour other than the availability of "a vast range of other military hardware" that the Chapter may call on and unless I am mistaken, each company has only a single Captain, Chaplain and several Librarians.

So, in terms of creating "Fluffy" army lists;
  • Are the Chapter organisations purely administrative, or are they also intended to fight in these organisations?
  • Is a 'Fluffy' marine list essentially limited to a single company + associated stuff - so 2x Tactical, 1x Devastator and 1x Assault/Bike/Speeder (1025-1050 points); the remainder being made up of armour and artillery
  • Would there be occasions where "mixed" companies would be created for a particular task (allowing the use of scouts and Terminators).
  • Would the leaders of one company be assigned to lead troops from a different company, or should there be a cap on the number of each leader type?
  • How should the "vast range of military hardware" be assigned to a battle formation, and indeed, what are the names of the higher battle formations (eg the equivalent of  Brigade, Division, Corps etc)?
  • Should the "Fluffy" marines always get Titan Legion and Imperial Navy support, and if so, who is in  overall command?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun May 31, 2009 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
At least theoretically, a 'fluffy' list would depict a Battle Company at war, so the core of the list would be:

- Tactical Formation
- Tactical Formation
- Assault Formation
- Devestator Formation

That's your 60 Tactical, 20 Assault and 20 Devestator Marines that form a standard Battle Company right there...

...and you never really see that in competative lists, just lots of Devestator and Assault Marines.


The rest of the force would be support formations drawn from the armoury or other companies, so extra tanks, or extra tactical marines, or whatever... strictly speaking the majority of Formations should probably be Tactical Marines, as they form the main strength of the Chapter (60% of all Marines are Tactical Marines IIRC), yet you don't see anywhere near that many Tactical Marines in competetive lists.

...but a 'fluffy' Marine army should have a Battle Company at its heart.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun May 31, 2009 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
I think you may have missed the point here E&C. While a single Battle Company is 'Fluffy' as a ground-pounding force, this would mean getting 5-6 armoured formations in a 3000 point army: is that also appropraitely 'Fluffy'?

Put another way, do we have any information on how 'armoured companies' are organised, and at what point they should be given a second Battle company etc?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun May 31, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by 'armoured formation'.

Like a Tank formation?



If we are to take Warhammer 40,000 as an example, in the standard Force Organisation chart (which was designed to allow the fielding of one Battle Company of Marines, plus some extra support choices), for each full roster you took, you could take 3 battle tanks like Predators, Vindicators or Land Raiders.

Which would sorta imply that for each Battle Company in your army, you should take one tank formation, be it Predator, Vindicator or Land Raider to remain 'fluffy'.

Kinda flimsy really. :)



Overwhelmingly in the background Marines will field whatever tool they feel is best for the job at hand.



Imperial Armour III has a full Epic order of battle for one of its scenarios, in which the Marines take:

- Tactical Formation
- Captain
- Dreadnought

- Tactical Formation
- Chaplain
- Dreadnought

- Devestator Formation
- 4x Razorbacks

- Assault Formation

Whirlwind Formation
- 3x Whirlwinds
- 1x Hyperios (what we call a 'Hunter')

Land Raider Detachment
- 3x Land Raiders

Thunderhawk Gunship

Thunderhawk Gunship

Battle Barge


----

Which is roughly 2700pts of 'fluffy' 2nd (battle) Company Marines.

Roughly. :)




To take a 6th (Tactical) Company army, it recommends:

- Drop the Devestator, Assault and Land Raider Detachments and replace them with 3x Tactical formations.
- Add 2x formations of 4 Land Speeder Tornados.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun May 31, 2009 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
Interesting - - - so the Imperial Armour III recommends an Air assault list (personally I would never take the Battle barge - it is just too slow), while the 6th (tactical) company is suggesting 5x Tactical Marines, Whirlwinds, two THawks and a Spaceship!

Ok, so the 6th is much closer to a "ground-pounder" with some air support. Weak as anything as it has virtually no AT or AA capabilities, and woe betide if it bumps into a Titan of any size.

However, both of these lists still have two THawks and a spaceship!! Do we have anything without Marine air support at all??
(If not, then this would certainly seem to imply that there is no such thing as a "Fluffy Ground-pounding" marine force)
Author:  vytzka [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
Quote: (Ginger @ 31 May 2009, 19:53 )

Guys

While bemoaning the omni-present "air-assault" marine lists, what should a "fluffy" ground pounding list actually contain?

Some seem to think it should be a mixture of Tacticals and Devastators with very limited numbers of Bikes or Land Speeders while the rulebook also suggests that all Bike / Land Speeder lists can be appropriate to the 6th and 7th companies respectively. The omni-present Terminator squads are only available to the 1st company while Scouts (of which there seems to be an unlimited number) are only to be found in the 10th company, and apparently do not get Rhinos or Razorbacks! Nothing is actually quantified for artillery or armour other than the availability of "a vast range of other military hardware" that the Chapter may call on

I'll try and tackle this as a Marine fluff nut :)

and unless I am mistaken, each company has only a single Captain, Chaplain and several Librarians.
Librarians (and Techmarines) form separate organizational structures outside Battle Company hierarchy. A Codex Astartes company has a Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer and Champion members in addition to a semi-optional command squad of fluctuating size (that the latter three are members of) and 10 squads (20 for scouts and 10-20 for First Company adding up to 100).

So, in terms of creating "Fluffy" army lists;
  • Are the Chapter organisations purely administrative, or are they also intended to fight in these organisations?
    Marine organization must be very flexible to account for myriads of different circumstances.

    Most of the time a standard deployment structure for a conflict large enough that a couple Tactical squads can't fix it by themselves is vaguely Battle Company based (give or take a squad or two) plus Terminator/Scout support plus a few squads from reserve companies plus psychic support from a Librarian or two plus armor and thunderhawks and spacecraft.

    It then follows that a Chapter can support four large military operations at the same time (or fewer and larger ones), leaving enough folks in reserve for training and lesser operations.

  • Is a 'Fluffy' marine list essentially limited to a single company + associated stuff - so 2x Tactical, 1x Devastator and 1x Assault/Bike/Speeder (1025-1050 points); the remainder being made up of armour and artillery
    Almost, but you rarely have a full company of prescribed size - Marines get injured, are ordered to drive Rhinos for another company (where did you think those guys come from? Real tanks are however driven by younger Techmarines) and so on while reserve company squads are often dispatched to buff out battle companies.

  • Would there be occasions where "mixed" companies would be created for a particular task (allowing the use of scouts and Terminators).
    Pretty much all the time when you're dealing with Battle Company-based groups.

  • Would the leaders of one company be assigned to lead troops from a different company, or should there be a cap on the number of each leader type?
    Highest ranking commander of the battle group should be in the lead. If you have a single Captain he's the boss, if there's no Captain but a Chaplain or Librarian present those can (but don't necessarily do, as they officially are outside command structure) do so as well, and if not it's a toss up between vet sargeants.

  • How should the "vast range of military hardware" be assigned to a battle formation, and indeed, what are the names of the higher battle formations (eg the equivalent of  Brigade, Division, Corps etc)?
    There are no such things as they don't _have_ that many men or equipment. Epic detachment sized tank formations are about the largest semi-official units of them as a given chapter can usually only present several of them. In a very rare and a very scary case you have say multiple Land Raider Armored Spearheads operating in the same area the commanding officer and structure will be designated on the usual ad-hoc basis.

    As for an overarching defined multi-Chapter command structure, such things officially don't exist and for good reason. It's unofficially possible, as Ultramarine successors all suck up to MAC, Dark Angels have their own thing going on with the Inner Circle and Imperial Fists successors also tend to keep together, but in those cases it would simply be accounted for in the customary ad-hoc command assignation procedures  :smile:

  • Should the "Fluffy" marines always get Titan Legion and Imperial Navy support, and if so, who is in  overall command?

Ideally it shouldn't be necessary, and this is a kind of thing not expanded upon very much in the fluff, but AdMech and Marines, both being naturally snobby elite types, would probably tend to congregate together. Overall command is again probably decided on a case to case basis, and no one short of a Chapter Master or a Legio Titanicus Grand Master would be as arrogant as to try and actually order another side around instead of giving suggestions (God help everyone if there's both at the same place).

Same thing with the Navy, probably.
Author:  vytzka [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
Quote: (Hena @ 01 Jun. 2009, 12:03 )

Quote: (Ginger @ 31 May 2009, 19:53 )

Should the "Fluffy" marines always get Titan Legion and Imperial Navy support, and if so, who is in  overall command?

If Forge Worlds books are to be believed, it seems that there is no overall commander. On Taros (IA3) there was Ad Mech, Marines and IG Joint operation. IG was overall commander, but couldn't order Marines or Adeptus Mechanicus to do much. He requested their help and in most cases got it. However Marines did refuse to do a fake flanking maneuver that was asked by the IG overall commander, as that was not worthy of Adeptus Astartes :smile:.

The whole imperial campaign in Taros was however such a cluster**** that it should probably not be considered a proper example of them fighting :whistle:
Author:  arkturas [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
In the thin Codex:SM on the 2nd to back page there is the current UM force disposition as of 6500745.M41

The total amount of stuff they have at there disposal listed there is as follows (Ignoring general troops and noting that bikes require riders)

3 Battlebarges
8 Strike Cruisers
12 Rapid Strike Vessels
32 Thunderhawks
21 Land Raiders
19 Razorbacks
129 Rhinos
14 Predator Destructors
11 Predator Annihilators
8 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
74 Terminator Suits
31 Dreadnoughts
26 Landspeeders
16 Landspeeder Tornadoes
19 Landspeeder Typhoon
124 Bikes
22 Attack Bikes
10 Captains
28 Librarians
10 Chaplains

More interesting is the 3 force listings also given

A) Retaliation Force
4 Librarians
Armoury: 4 Predator Annihilators, 6 Predator Destructors, 6 Razorbacks, 3 Land Raiders, 4 Vindicators, 3 Whirlwinds, 5 Rhinos
Fleet: 2 Strike Cruisers, 12 Thunderhawks
1st Company: 10 Terminators, 2 Land Raiders
3rd Company: Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer, 1 Veteran Sergeant, 35 Tactical, 20 Devastator, 8 Assault, 2 Dreadnoughts, 6 Rhinos, 6 Landspeeders (2 of Each), 10 Bikes, 2 Attack Bikes
10th Company: 20 Scouts

B) Protection Force
1 Librarian
Fleet: 3 Thunderhawks
1st Company: 10 Veterans, 1 Rhino
4th Company: Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, 2 Veteran Sergeants, 30 Tactical, 20 Assault, 6 Rhinos
10th Company: 5 Scouts

C) Counter-Incursion Force
1 Librarian
Armoury: 2 Predator Annihilators, 1 Vindicator, 1 Razorback
Fleet: 1 Strike Cruiser, 3 Thunderhawks
1st Company: 5 Terminators
6th Company: Captain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer, 2 Veteran Sergeants, 15 Tactical, 1 Dreadnought, 1 Rhino, 2 Landspeeders, 5 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike
8th Company: 10 Assault
9th Company: 5 Devastator
10th Company: 5 Scouts

The Epic style vehicle squadrons would be almost non-existent, and Thunderhawks are definitely strong components. It's also a very mixed bag of different companies providing troops with characters limited to around 1 of each.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
They are 3rd edition style detachments (or the ones in the rulebook given as examples of making your own!). Just highlights the difference between Epic and 40k really. I bet following apocalpyse they would give a different listing :)
Author:  Mephiston [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 01 Jun. 2009, 12:23 )

They are 3rd edition style detachments (or the ones in the rulebook given as examples of making your own!). Just highlights the difference between Epic and 40k really. I bet following apocalpyse they would give a different listing :)

Yes, I bet every marine chapter has a baneblade or 20 kicking about  :oh:
Author:  vytzka [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
Quote: (Mephiston @ 01 Jun. 2009, 14:27 )

Yes, I bet every marine chapter has a baneblade or 20 kicking about  :oh:

Yeah, they just call them Fellblades :p

(hey, it's not Marine players' fault we still haven't got the damn plastic T-hawk and apparently won't for at least a year)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
I'd expect to see a plastic 40k Warhound Titan before a plastic 40k Thunderhawk happens.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  'Fluffy' Marine lists
I just cracked open my Vraks I book, here's the Dark Angels Strike Force that was involved:


- Head Quarters:
- Chapter Master Azrael (Supreme Commander)
- 5x Librarians
- 1x Chaplain in Terminator Armour

- Land Raider Prometheus
- Damocles Command Rhino


- 1st Company forces:
- 25x Terminators
- 2x Land Raiders


- 2nd Company forces:
- 15x Land Speeders


- 3rd Company forces:
- Captain, Chaplain
- 20x Tactical Marines
- 20x Assault Marines
- 20x Devestator Marines
- 6x Rhino
- 1x Dreadnought

- 5th Company forces:
- Captain
- Chaplain
- 60x Tactical Marines
- 20x Assault Marines
- 20x Devestator Marines
- 10x Rhino
- 4x Dreadnought


- 6th Company
- Chaplain
- 70x Tactical Marines
- 7x Rhino


- 8th Company
- 50x Assault Marines (on foot, no jump packs)
- 5x Rhinos


- 9th Company
- 40x Devestator
- 4x Rhino



- 'Armoury'
- 8x Land Raider
- 2x Land Raider Crusader
- 4x Predator Annihilators
- 8x Predator Destructors
- 15x Whirlwinds
- 9x Vindicators
- 10x Razorbacks

- 'Fleet'
- Battle Barge
- 2x Strike Cruiser
- 15x Thunderhawk Gunships
- 22x Thunderhawk Transporter
- 42x Drop Pods



Which in Epic would roughly equate to:



- 1st Company forces:
Terminator Formation in 4x Land Raiders with Chaplain - 775


- 2nd Company forces:
Land Speeder Formation - 200
Land Speeder Formation - 200
Land Speeder Formation - 200


- 3rd Company forces:
Tactical formation with Supreme Commander, 3x Rhino - 400
Assault formation with Chaplain - 225
Devestator formation with Dreadnought and Librarian, 2x Rhino - 350




- 5th Company forces:
Tactical Formation with Captain, 3x Rhino - 350
Tactical Formation with two Dreadnoughts and a Librarian, 3x Rhino - 450
Tactical Formation with Dreadnought and a Librarian, 3x Rhino - 400
Assault formation with Chaplain - 225



- 6th Company
Tactical Formation with Chaplain, 3x Rhinos - 350
Tactical Formation, 3x Rhinos - 300


- 8th Company
Assault Formation - 225
Assault Formation - 225



- 9th Company
Devestator Formation with Librarian, 2x Rhinos - 300
Devestator Formation with Librarian, 2x Rhinos - 300


- 'Armoury'
Land Raider formation - 400
Land Raider formation - 400
Predator Annihilator formation - 300
Predator Destructor formation - 300
Predator Destructor formation - 300
Whirlwind formation - 300
Whirlwind formation - 300
Whirlwind formation - 300
Vindicator Formation - 300
Vindicator Formation - 300

Also 10x Razorbacks to scatter about the army - 250


- 'Fleet'
Battle Barge - 350
Strike Cruiser - 200
Strike Cruiser - 200

15x Thunderhawk Gunships - 3000
22x Thunderhawk Transporter (flying in pairs) - 3300
42x Drop Pods - Free


========


All of which yields a 8925pt army, not including the 'Fleet' assets. Cut that into three chunks and you have 3x Epic tournament armies.
Fleet assets are worth 7050pts.




So, that's what a fluffy Dark Angels Vraks Strike Force would look like in Epic.

Notable items include:

- A preponderance of Tactical Marines.
- Armoury detachments showing that Marines do field seperate armoured formations in larger battles.
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