Tactical Command
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Some numbers for Marines
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=10286		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Soren [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
Destructors are not supposed to kill tanks. If you make the numbers, maybe you should do it with a mixed squadron of predators (2-2). Or you include the Annihilator squadron.

Assaults the devs will easily win because of their 3+ and additional Rhinos (at least 6+ :) )

So and now the question of the questions: What do we want to be the marine list? Shooty or assault oriented? The Vindicator has to be altered into the chosen direction.
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
Add all the other important contextual stuff and this might actually be worth something Hena.

Like what happens in a real game with that range, vulnerability, numbers for the points cost, and actual tactical situations.

At the moment this doesn't even come close to challenging what every marine player of ANY experience can see.

Lets look at just one of your stunning conclusions.

Against AT targets Vindicator is best, Devastators next and Predators last
Based on what - the few numbers you showed? Why not include the Dev's razorback they get for the same price? Why not include their extra 3 hits? Why not include the fact that the Devs are shooting 45cm not 30cm and can make good use of cover?  Why not include the fact that extra range means that opportunities for using better shooting modes will occur more often?

In short Vindicators are only better if you ignore practically all relevant factors as you have chosen to do. What is the point in actually bothering to post that? Why not post something useful about how effective they really are in game?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
I'm with Markconz here Hena, this is a list of such generality and consequent lack of context that it is nigh-useless.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
We got into heavy number crunching in the Vindicator/Demolisher thread where Blarg used his system that incorporates range, speed, attack type, ignore cover mods etc. Although there are some flaws in his system it is far in advance of a simple list of average number of hits.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
Yeah, Blarg did that. And that put Vindie in rather good situation.

After our analysis, Blarg has changed his mind and now believes the Vindicator is significantly underpowered.



A comparison that you'll like:

4 Predators sustaining fire on infantry in a building: 4 hits
4 Vindicators sustaining fire on infantry in a building: 3.3 hits

And the Predator is faster. :)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
Blargs last comment was to up the speed of the Vindie to 30cm and leave it at that.

Nah, he posted in another thread somewhere later on that he'd changed his mind, I forget which one, and I'm sure Blarg will correct me if I'm wrong.
Author:  Blarg D Impaler [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines

(Evil and Chaos @ Aug. 14 2007,07:31)
QUOTE
Yeah, Blarg did that. And that put Vindie in rather good situation.


After our analysis, Blarg has changed his mind and now believes the Vindicator is significantly underpowered.

No, I didn't say that.  And considering your penchant for twisting words and meanings in an effort to get the result you want I'd appreciate it if you never paraphrase me again.  You can directly quote me, but don't speak for me again.

I did a revised analysis and changed my opinion that the Vindicator would be equal to the Predators, which everybody up to this point say are worth the same number of points, if the speed were to be increased from a 20cm move to a 30cm move. ?Let me say that again:

In my opinion the Vindicator will be corrected if its speed is increased from a 20cm move to a 30cm move.

I haven't done anything further regarding the Vindicator for a couple of different reasons. ?First, I really like the idea of commonizing the Vindicator with all of the other Rhino chassis based variants because it is clean and simple. ?I haven't evaluated the "speed 25cm / Walker special ability" idea because I don't have a way to assign a value to the Walker special ability. ?I haven't compared any version of the Vindicator to Devastators, Land Speeders or anything comparable because there are too many variables that I just can't put a value on. ?My system is a way for comparing firepower between groups of weapons, so I keep comparisons to items that have the same unit type, speed, armor save, CC, FF. ?(I have factors for speed and FF, the factor for FF I am reasonably sure of while the factor for speed has yet to be confirmed.)  Comparing infantry and armored vehicles is, in my opinion, not a good idea because you can't adequately account for the different rules that apply to INF and AV - you are comparing apples and oranges.

The re-evaluation of the Vindicator prompted me to review my analysis of several IG vehicles and AMTL titan weapons. ?When I re-ran the numbers for the LRuss Demolisher it went from being superior to the basic LRuss to worse than the basic LRuss. ?This forced me to re-evaluate the idea of improving the Demolisher Cannon so that the LRuss Demolisher would be equal to the basic LRuss.

In the process of doing that re-evaluation I also fine-tuned the calculations for all of the other LRuss variants (Conquerer, Destroyer, Eliminator, Executioner, etc.) and found a lot of them to be lacking compared to the basic LRuss. ?This bothers me because I would like to see all LRuss variants to be equal with the basic one so players can swap out variations at will in an effort for simplicity. ?For the IG army list that we will be using in our group I'm leaning towards having the Vanquisher being more points than the basic LRuss, having one or two of the variants being equal in points to the basic LRuss, and having all of the others being worth ~80% of the basic LRuss at 200 points.

I do not support the idea of changing the stats for the Demolisher Cannon. ?I think doing so will have too great of an impact on all of the vehicles that use it and the ripple effect through the rest of the army will just make things worse.
Author:  Soren [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Some numbers for Marines
If I understand you right you gave everything some number and did plain mathematics on the firepower (with some mods for speed and armor?)?

If this is like I think it is, *doh*  :blush:   could you please open your mathematics to us, because I cannot compare your results with mine and so cannot share your opinion. But I?m eager to learn  :)
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