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The Mud-Marine Challenge
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:01 pm 
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If that's the case then why remove air assault? Pure marines (without navy or titans) work fine. However remove enough options and surely no army works.


I've said several times (Some in this very thread):

The 'Mud Marine' Challenge involves not relying on Thunderhawks, Landing Craft & Teleports to win the game.

So we're asking:

"Can Marines win if they take a mostly / entirely ground-based force?"

And bound up in this is the question:

"Is Marine Armour really as useless as many people suggest?"


That's it.

Titans are allowed, Navy is allowed, even a sensible amount of teleporters is allowed.

Just don't take an army of 'core' formations that starts mostly off the board.

We want to see if such a Marine army can win their fair share of games (As they SHOULD be able to according to the Epic:Armageddon rulebook's background text & the wider 40k background).

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Mephiston
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 20 2006,18:01)
QUOTE
If that's the case then why remove air assault? Pure marines (without navy or titans) work fine. However remove enough options and surely no army works.


I've said several times (Some in this very thread):

The 'Mud Marine' Challenge involves not relying on Thunderhawks, Landing Craft & Teleports to win the game.

So we're asking:

"Can Marines win if they take a mostly / entirely ground-based force?"

And bound up in this is the question:

"Is Marine Armour really as useless as many people suggest?"


That's it.

Titans are allowed, Navy is allowed, even a sensible amount of teleporters is allowed.

Just don't take an army of 'core' formations that starts mostly off the board.

We want to see if such a Marine army can win their fair share of games (As they SHOULD be able to according to the Epic:Armageddon rulebook's background text & the wider 40k background).

Can Marines win with mostly ground formations?
Yes, but its a lot harder than the air assault. The games played here show it can be done.

Is marine armour really as useless as many people suggest?

In comparison to 3 warhounds would any one take 2 formations of land raiders? or one each of LR's and Pred's? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, the warhounds are faster, will probably survive longer and give me an extra activation.

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Morg
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:44 pm 
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(Mephiston @ Nov. 20 2006,20:11)
QUOTE
In comparison to 3 warhounds would any one take 2 formations of land raiders? or one each of LR's and Pred's? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, the warhounds are faster, will probably survive longer and give me an extra activation.


If you ask me there is a slim chance I'd go for the Land Raiders - actually I've grown quite fond of them lately. They are not the super-?ber-troop but most enemies don't expect them on the field. Well, that and I got over 20 of those buggers ;)

The more important question would if I'd rather take a LR detachment or 2 Land Speeders. Every sensible player would take the LS, wouldn't he? If we would get some tanks with MW weapons this would solve all the problems of the Marines.

Regarding Land Raiders I've played a Mud Marine game against Eldar last weekend with quite an extreme army: 2 formations of LR, packed with Terminators, one detachment of Tacticals and Assaults.

They did ok in the game, but I lost because my enemy killed the transports and I couldn't contest objectives anymore. I think it did only go ok because my enemy was a bit inexperienced - otherwise he would have won more easily.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:12 pm 
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I posted over on the SG boards, but forgot to say anything here.

Last weekend we played the Helsreach Krawla beach landing on Armageddon as a scenario.  I played Marines.

4 Krawlas  2 loaded with Loota Warbands, 1 Snappa mob, 1 KoS
1 Drop Rok loaded with Big Loota Warband
3 FB

4 Militia companies (IG w/ less firepower, larger formations, and morale penalty)
2 SM armor companies (Preds + Vindies + Hunter), 1 with Librarian (on Vindie)
Tacs w/ SM
Tacs w/ Razorbacks (mix of AP/AT)
2 Speeders
1 Bike w/ Chaplain
Tbolts

I lost but not by much.  Primarily the loss was due to taking a risk on winning strategy for Turn 2 that went against me and resulted in 2 intermingled assaults.  The fact that I lost every single assault after the first turn, tying in 2 cases that resulted in total routes, didn't help either.  You'd think that after 6 or 8 rolls being only 0-2 down on resolution I would have won at least one...

The SM armor companies did great.  I was able to pull off double move/sustain combos and had I set up a crossfire as I should have I would have gutted a Krawla with one of them in a single combo (should average a bit over 12 hits/6 points of damage w/ Crossfire, probably breaking a DC8 WE even with a rally in the middle).

There were 3 of us and everyone agreed that the armor was worth the points even without the need for AA from the Hunters.  The loss of speed due to Vindicators was negligible.  The extra 5cm movement for the Hunters and Preds usually went to re-arranging the formation, which you would want to do anyway so there was basically no effect.

I wouldn't take 2 of the companies at 2700-3000 points but 1 is a strong possibility.  With a Speeder formation or 2 to back it up they should go a very long way towards reducing SM weakness versus WEs.  At 500-550 (depending on a character) I think they are more cost effective for AT/anti-WE support than the titan options, although the extra activation of 2 Warhounds makes that a very tough choice in my book).

I am still open to considering a 3+FF on the Vindies but other than that I think the armor changes are sufficient.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:09 pm 
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Interesting AAR ... what did you use for Krawlas, BTW ?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:15 pm 
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What's AAR?

The Krawlas were home builds.  They were made by using 40K Skorcha turrets for the body (halved cylinders) on top of a box of plasticard.  Treads were various pieces - Battlefort treads, megagargant treads, etc..  The heads were either megagargant heads or the front "head" portions of BFG ships.  And, of course, they have assorted orky bits - rivets, turrets, and so on.  They were mounted on bases that were roughly 40x80mm because with the arms sticking out front they were quite tippy.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:29 pm 
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AAR = After Action Report

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J0k3r
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:35 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 30 2006,17:15)
QUOTE
What's AAR?

The Krawlas were home builds.  They were made by using 40K Skorcha turrets for the body (halved cylinders) on top of a box of plasticard.  Treads were various pieces - Battlefort treads, megagargant treads, etc..  The heads were either megagargant heads or the front "head" portions of BFG ships.  And, of course, they have assorted orky bits - rivets, turrets, and so on.  They were mounted on bases that were roughly 40x80mm because with the arms sticking out front they were quite tippy.

Photos please, pretty please  ???

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nealhunt
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:54 pm 
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They're not mine, but I'll try.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:35 am 
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Yay!  :D

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:48 am 
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Pics, Yes ! Thanks Neal and D/S for interpreting ! :D

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Warpriest
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:38 pm 
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I'll be playing a game tonight with a "mud marine" style list, 4000 points against Steel Legion. I posted the list in this thread and plan on following up with a bat rep.

I'll be taking a dozen Land Raiders.   :p
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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:31 am 
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Good to see L/Rdrs used  "En Mass" ! :D

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Warpriest
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:13 am 
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I just posted a bat rep followed by a summary to the above thread. I faced IG heavy on the armor, with no artillery. The marines took massive casualties, but won 2-0 through mainly with speed and bravery.

The Land Raiders ended up being mostly a threat. They did some damage, but they mostly worked as anchors to control the middle of the battlefield, keeping the IG away from my center.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:58 am 
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After looking at the OOBs, the SMs had a respectable force with all those Raiders and other SM AFVs !   It might have been a big blood bath if the IG took some FA or even a Titan ...

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