I would be in favour of reviewing the Hades engine rule.

As it is, it adds 5 cm of move speed to all Rhino-chassis vehicles. It is better than Codex engines without a drawback. It does not change the way these vehicles are played.

I would like to propose making Hades Engine vehicles gain +10 cm move when given an assault order. I trust this would change the way BA lists are chosen in the first place, and the way they would be played on the battlefield.

Also, apart from assault, which is a Blood angel thing, the vehicle is not altogether improved compared to Codex versions.

Originally, in 40k, the BA engines allowed an extra assault move, and I believe this version of the Hades engines reflect that better.

Edit: regarding Storm raven armour, I would just like to add that Storm Ravens, apart from their 12 rear stat, do not have comparable armour to Predator/Vindicators in 40k, who have 13 in the front (SR have 12 in the front). Also, Skimmer vehicles in Epic tend to have lower armour than non-Skimmer vehicles, not higher.

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The drawback is the context of the rest of the list, including the really big drawback of Frenzied.

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100% agreed. Please dont misunderstand my words. I am not saying it is OP. I am just mentioning an alternative which might impact on the gameplay more, and therefore might be preferable.

What do you think about it?

Edit: actually regarding the drawback, I believe in the intro to the list, we could mention that the BA list represents that chapter, but can very well represent any SM chapter with a more assault roster and to represent that, you could play with the same list, but removing Death Company, Hades engine rule and frenzied rule.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I'm just pointing out that there is a drawback to the existing rule, I've no opinion as to whether it merits a change. :-)

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The Thunderhawk has the same front and side armour (12) as the Storm Raven. The Thunderhawk's rear armour is only 10. Yet it has a 4+RA save.

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Yes, but it's supposed to have 3 DC, and has only 2 for air warfare balancing motives. Also due to its autodie critical, which would be more dangerous with a lower save.

Ultimately, we dont have to refer to 40k stats exactly, just the concept. I was just introducing another idea to balance the effectiveness/point cost proportion of the Storm raven, which would be to review the armour stats a little and the bloodstrike missiles a little, instead of the bloodstrike missiles a lot .

We do have to make sure that it doesn't vastly outclass the Vulture for the same point cost.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I think the list is in a "developmental" status, so not experimental -Only minor changes are needed, the change the whole list shouldn't be the goal.

Stormravens have the same point value than the Land Raider, without it's 4+ save, and every turn 2x twin lascannons -okay, it's a skimmer, but if the Stormraven will become 2x single shot, it will disappear -in favor of the LR for example. Why to use a 75p SR for anything else than a DC transport option? we will have a useless/unused/over-expensive unit! The BA list has much less options then the Codes Marine list -so there sholud be some advantages to make the list playable. I painted too much tiny red guys to play a Codex Marine army with them

I'm playing with Eldar, and the 2+ 60cm Fire Prism for 50p is not a problem there.

You should look the list as a whole, not part by part. maybe the Rhino +5cm move looks too strong, but with the less options the BA army is a bit inferior in flexibility to normal marines -Yeah, I know, it just needs a different style of play

As has been stated multiple times in the BA developments threads, the Hades engine speed boost is amply balanced by the list structure in toto. The use of frenzied and lack of titans, especially Warhounds, is more than good to balance. The question is the number of shots on the Storm Raven and/or the number of formations you can take of them. Probably some version of 1-1 Storm Ravens with ground pounders or other limiter might be good to consider. LoM does make a good point that you can basically spam the hell out of them which may cause issues. We should test that out.

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Just be wise

The main issue is to decide that their main role is tank hunting or transporting units! I vote for the second.

About the update: Frenzied Devastators sux

Why? Don't forget Planetfall and a 35cm move. If you fill them with Scouts you get a garrison that shoots first(most times) at 60cm!. I am tempted to increase their cost for this alone

Basically they are two different beasts. When you need speedy assault/objective grabs why would you ever choose the LR to replace the SR...?

In the end, I think the change to the Bloodstrikes is a minimalist adjustment given all of the abilities this unit has for the cost.

That was not my point. I was suggesting that, perhaps, the alternate rule I proposed enhanced the gameplay of the list by further emphasizing assaults, over just emphasizing mobility.

Also, I believe formations such as Baal Predators would be easier to use as Assault formations with this alternate rule.

Additionally, I think that the Predator/Vindicator upgrades find a better role within the list, as you might be encouraged to field them as upgrades to act as AT soaks to the loaded Rhinos full of frenzied BAs.

If, in fact, the alternate rule gives a more BA feeling to the gameplay of the list after playtesting, why not implement it instead of the current Hades engine rule?

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Another unit that should perhaps be looked at, in conjunction with Black Legion (Salamanders), is the Land raider Redeemer.

In my personal experience, it is a rather poor choice in all lists except ones with a Landing Craft, and even then, it is not necessarily better than a regular Land Raider.

Perhaps it would be worth extending the range of the Flamestorm cannon to 30 cm, taking as precedent the Hellhound's main weapon.

This would make it a good choice in many lists and a real alternative to the regular Land Raider.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

You think? When I look at the Blood Angels list I see the faster vehicles as the most significant advantage/boost/attraction in the list, providing lots of small advantages. Vehicles have more chance of getting into range (particularly useful for those with 30cm range guns early on), more chance of getting into position to crossfire or support assaults. They can also position in 35cm but out of 30cm, in a position to assault an IG Mech formation, say, without being able to be assaulted back (note they would have to stay inside their vehicles to do so which is risky so it's not something you'd do that often).

I don't believe that was the case. I used to play against Blood Angels in 3rd ed 40k when the faster vehicles came in and I recall them adding a random amount of extra movement to any move, with a risk of damaging the vehicle. In the current codex and background the engine is improved with captured STC data and is now reliable with no risk of damaging the vehicle.

They don't have temporary boosters to increase their speed, [img]Lucifer%20pattern%20engines[/img] are more efficient and generally faster. How it is now reflects how they are meant to be. I really don't think 40cm assault range would be a good idea either. They should have similar but not better assault range than Eldar. As has been mentioned the lack of titans and lots of frenzied formations counter-balances the extra speed. I'm strongly in favour of keeping the +5 movement as now.

I think the Redeemer is fine and appropriate as is, no change needed.

Storm Ravens attached to Scouts would have a nice shooting attack (4 x 60cm AT3+ under the proposed Bloodstrike nerf), which is powerful one time, but it doesn't seem excessively powerful for a 300 point unit. For 325 points an Ork Blitz Brigade with 2 x Soopa Gun or Supa Zzap Guns put out a more deadly attack at 60cm. I'd like to see Storm Ravens tested a lot before any further change is made.

ahhh I misunderstood your post. I see what you meant now. My bad.

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Are there any plans to include Sanguinary Guard in the list? I think they would be super cool. 3+ armor save, 5+ FF 3+CC EA1 MW something like that...

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