In general, I'd agree. It seems silly to be looking at changing the Thunderhawk before looking at the under performing units.

My suggestion would be to table this and possibly return to it after the other proposed changes are ran through properly.

Ginger

To be fair, everything you have noted is no different to most other armies. Stating enemy AA as a reason is pointless due to the TH armour. The %'s in all respects will all add up to show that a Marine Air Assault is still one of the strongest armies out there no matter how you down-play it. The 1/3 restriction will only effect the ally element which is really the discussion here - not the Marine element.

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4+ RA fails 25% of the time, and a critical 1/6 of the time. So there is a 1:24 chance of being shot down, even for Landing Craft. while unlikely, losing a fully laden LC this way really sucks. So most torunament players I know nearly always planetfall the beasts - at an additonal 200pts cost. Obviously you can take the risk if you want to . . . .

Other armies have separate transport costs, but they are included in the Marine costs. Buying THawks means dropping the integral transport - and before anyone else suggests it, lets not tweak the list by trying to separate out the transport into separate upgrades - that way lies madness! The point is that the list has been costed with the transport, and the formations are significantly weaker without it.

And the %'s only show that the SM list is better with a mixture of all elements including *some* air-transport. One of the hall-marks of an under-priced element of any list is to min-max it to see whether the advantages increase. If you try to do this with large numbers of THawks or Landing Craft, if anything the SM list becomes significanlty weaker. For example, try using the SM "1st company list" (5x THawks, 5x Terminators and 250 pts of characters). You may win one or two games, but I suggest your losses will outweigh your wins, not least because the list has many weaknesses.

Incorrect. You also have to add the chance of hitting the thing first. Place in another 32% or 52% or even 80% if you need to boost your observations however you will see that the chance to shoot one of these things down is next to nothing. It is a very lucky person who gets to do it against Marines - yes there will be stories of how it has happened, yet it is not a normal thing at all. So the arguement for this as a case is null and void IMO. Sorry, just telling it as I see it.

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To my knowledge, spacecraft are not part of the 1/3 for allies so that would have no affect on things. Ignoring titans, you can still take a landing craft and three thunderhawks or 5 thunderhawks which should ensure anything you want air mobile will have the option. Yes, you won't be able to load up on air transport AND titans and taking the larger titans means air assault probably isn't going to be a huge part of your list, but it's not preventing anything except titans from factoring so heavily into air assault lists.

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Actually just because it was the first topic didn't mean it was going to go first - just that it had a larger portion of interest from the New Adeptus Astartes thread so I figured that was a good a place to start as any.

None of these posts are intended to co-incide with the order of their introduction to a change. They're more to be discussed individually so I can then sort through to decide what actual changes will be proposed to the ERC for change.

A few folks seem to think the sky is falling and they're furiously looking for their skyhooks, when in fact the discussions are to help decide whether or not there will be changes.

For me, it seems more that those that want to change the (balanced) list seem to think that it's their right to have the list change now (mainly because of a thread with the title The 'NEW' Adeptus Astartes... there isn't much wrong with the existing list) .

By giving that thread the title it has, it is assumed by all those with good/fun/interesting/absurd/well meant/silly, etc, ideas that change is coming and they want to have their say in it. Most of the ideas thrown around since belong in variant lists at best (and some should not see the light of day).

Discussion is good but when something isn't really broken, it doesn't really need fixing.

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Just being pedantic because I just finished a seminar where I enjoyed discussing such phrases in depth - so nothing more intended

The above is not fact. Simple as that. It is an opinion, no more different that anyone else here has given. Only difference is that it has not been stated as your/anyone's opinion - just so we are all clear. Not everyone will see it that way - that's all.

Back to it

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But you agree there are things that could perhaps be done better/differently?


Hey, it's a discussion board... <shrug> Also... assume nothing....

Remember, I've never said that there would be wholesale change. Anyone thinking that may be in for a nasty shock. Just because I've proposed it doesn't mean I'll look to implement it. But I also won't stop people from telling me their points of view and no one should decry them for it either.


You may be right to a degree but that's your view and you're entitled to it. Others feel the list isn't what it should be and here's where we try to find as close to a happy medium as possible.


It's obvious half the board feels differently to that statement and given your statement above saying "there isn't much wrong with the existing list" I'm not sure you totally agree that the list can't have at least some tinkering. Right now I'm trying to ascertain what tinkering, if any, needs to be done.

Look, if folks aren't into trying something new because they feel the list isn't broken, that's 100% ok. However, others might like to try something new that makes it just a little less cookie-cutter and might not even break the list (my main aim BTW) - wouldn't that be nice? However, if nothing gets discussed we won't ever know.... Stagnation isn't ideal really.

That would all be matters of your opinion and obviously others disagree. Many consider there to be internal balance and/or background issues with the list as it stands. The list and units within it don't have to be 'really broken' to benefit from being tweaked and improved. Nor do flawed elements have to stay so because they have historically been so. That's not the way Net-EA development has worked in the past nor need it in the future.

As the new SM champion Dobbsy has every right to discuss and explore various options and to take a new approach to changing the list. Our opinions and arguments will help shape his decisions and despite the strong opinions on both sides I am confident he can find a good path forward. This isn't a democracy and ultimately the decision of changes to test out will come down to Dobbsy's judgement of what is best (ok, yes, in theory the ERC have a veto but in practice they are unlikely to use it) and I for one intend to support him and playtest changes where I get a chance.

I don't ever write IMHO because it is ABSOLUTELY obvious that this is my opinion (and I don't see much humbleness in most of the comments that end with IMHO ).
This is obvious because I wrote it.
There is no one with a gun to my head forcing me to write something that is not my opinion.

So just so we're all clear on that, anything I write is my opinion .

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How opinionated of you Sorry just had to.

Topic goes night night.

Thanks for all the excellent debate and help guys.