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The Mud-Marine Challenge
nealhunt
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:41 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Nov. 06 2006,23:51)
QUOTE
Which list has had the profusion of MW and TK weapons?

It's not just MW and TK.  It's also Disrupt and to a lesser extent Ignore Cover.

Eldar have tons of MW and TK.  Black Legion has access to quite a bit as well.

The Ferals have wide-ranging access to MW but it's limited per formation and tends to be suppressed fairly easily in my experience.  I think that's less of a problem than the cheap Disrupt BP Squig Catapults.

Tyranids don't have a lot of ranged attacks but a very large portion of them are MW, Disrupt, and/or IC.

Necrons can have hordes of MWCC weapons but I've not played them so I don't know how they are in practice.

Emperor's Children is Disrupt-o-rama.

Iyanden Eldar will probably be quite MW heavy.

It's NOT the Tau list,


No, but Tau are absolutely eaten up with Disrupt and IC.  To be fair, they need excellent firepower to offset lack of assault ability but whether or not that is true it still contributes to the fact that basic, 4+ armor saves seem to be dropping in value.

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Honda
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:36 pm 
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His firepower decently outranged me, so outmanuevering wasn't all that nessesary for him. I had to fight him on his terms for most of the game, at first because of range, and
in the later turns when my greatly depleted forces were too damaged to do any decent killing.

There were far fewer Engagements than you'd find in a normal Marine game.

I just got shot to bits at long range until my Marines had too few units left to provide an effective fighting force.


These comments are not intended to be overly critical, but I think it's important to point out that you took a relatively slow list that had small units in it and then were surprised that a more mobile list cut you to pieces.

It would have been quite a surprise if the results had turned out any differently.

Granted, you tried out an experimental force and it didn't work out, but that doesn't mean that the whole SM list is hosed.

Let's try to keep in mind that the onus is on the marines to get to engagement range as quickly and with as many units as possible, in order to take advantage of the strengths in the SM list.

If you hamstring your force by limiting some of it's capabilities, then don't be too surprised if someone who isn't under any limitations handles you in a rough manner.

The original purpose of the MM challenge was to come up with a non-air assault force that could take on other lists. That is not the same exercise as taking specific formations and trying to get them to operate in a way that they aren't geared for.

Again, I'm not trying to come across harsh, but let's not skew the starting position and then expect unreasonable results.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:53 pm 
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Again, I'm not trying to come across harsh, but let's not skew the starting position and then expect unreasonable results.


The force I took is one that should certainly have a fighting chance according to the background. Statistically it underperformed somewhat too (Few targets of opertunity as most of my firepower was AP and his army was largely mechanised).

I'm not drawing too many conclusions on a single game, merely reporting what happened, and I look forwards to fielding a variant of this list again.


If you hamstring your force by limiting some of it's capabilities

How is this army list specifically hamstrung. Barring the Dreadnoughts (Which are there to act as mobile anchors to my battle line), it's not slow for a mud-marine list (Every unit at least 30cm speed).

I assure you I went to the table with the intent of going for the win. :)




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CAL001
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:16 pm 
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I took the challenge last night against Orton. I took the following:

1. Tactical Det
+ Sup Comd
+ 2 x Razorback LC
+ 2 x Vindicator
+ 1 x Hunter

2. Tactical Det
+ Librarian
+ 2 x Vindicator
+ 1 x Hunter

3. Devastator Det
+ Librarian
+ 4 x Razorback LC

4. Bike Det
+ Chaplain

5. Speeder Det
+ Tornado
+ Typhoon

6. Land Raider Det

7. Land Raider Helios Det

8. Predator Det (2&2)

9. Whirlwind Det

Geoff's Guard Army

1. Regt HQ
+ Chimeras
+ Orgryns
+ Leman Russ
+ Hydra

2. Inf Coy
+ Snipers
+Heavy Weapons

3. Artillery Coy
(6 x Basilisk, 3 x Manticlor)

4. Superheavy Tank Coy
3 x Shadowswords

5. Bombard Battery

6. Storm Trooper Det

7. Rough Riders

8. Hydra Battery

9. Deathstrikes

Setup

On my left I had the Speeders, Preds and the Dev det. In the centre was Tac 2, WW and LRH and on the far right was LR1, Tac 1 and the bikes. Facing off on the left was the Arty coy with RR out front forward of them and slightly to the right was the ST in a garrison. In the centre was the Hydra Bat, the deathstrikes, Bombards and the SupH. To the right was the Inf Coy garrisoned with the reg HQ behind it.

Geoff won the initiative and like any good gaurd comd he unloaded with the srty first, to little effect. I moved the speeders up and had a crak at the RR, killing one. I followed up with the preds and killed a Basilisk. geoff tried to counter with the RR and was killed to a man in the assault by the supporting fire of the Speeders. I unlaoded with the WW on the storm troopers scoring eight hits and killed four, best result I have ever had with WW. the deathstrikes unloaded killing a Helios. my devs moved up behind the preads and fired unsuccessfully on the Arty Coy.

In the centre my Tac to moved up to further isolate the arty coy. this was fired on by the bombards and I lost the vindies. The Helios moved up in support and killed another Bas from the arty coy.

On the right my LR moved to some cover to avoid straight shots from the Suph and fired on the garrisoned inf coy to little effect. The Suph doubled into firing positions and killed one. I moved Tac 1 up on a double and had a crack at the inf coy to little effect. they then failed an overwatch and fired with the neg one and killed all but one of my tac inf, including the sup comd to the snipers,not happy. the hyrda bat dopubled forward and fired at the WW killing one. last was my bikes which moved up behind tac 1 in a posn to engage.

Most units rally and we continue. I continue to press the left and break the arty coy. Follow up from the preds inflicts another kill. Bombards retaliate killing a pred. the Helios quickly reorientate killing two hydras and breaking the formation. The SupH kill the remaining LR1 formation. Tac 2 follows up on the storm troopers wiping them out. The RHQ moves to aid the failing left flank and is unable to shoot due to terrain. Tac 1 has a crack at the Suph hitting, but causing no damage. Bikes follow up engageing the inf coy killing six with some help from tac 1 supporting fire, unfortunately they are wiped out. Info cy does its own engage and all but wipes out tac 1. The death stikes try there hand at doubling to take an obj and cause some grief.

Turn Three not so many rallies this time.

SupH waste two WW breaking the formation. Helios redeploy again and kill two chimera and their infantry, including Geoff's sup comd. The Death Strikes are wiped out by tac 2 in an engage. Bombards cause more damage and another pred bites the dust. I have nothing left on the right and so geoff moves the RHQ closer with no effect. speeders and Devs are unable to effect the game.

We called time at this point and it was nil all. We went to a points count as it was getting last and it was a resounding guard victory by about 1300 points.

As far as outcomes go my onservations, the shadowswords where a major game influence. even using terrain I was unable to stay away from them and had little weapons to destroy them. My plan did work in that I intended to break through on the left and then sweep up the board. Speeders MW are essential to the game for a marine to get some easy kills and suppress or break formations. the combinations of Inf, Armour and fast attack CC work, as we all know. But we lack the ability to reach out and touch someone, not being able to dual with the arty or touch up suph or titans.

I like the all armour inf  game as it is my normal work atmosphere, but without air or titans it isn't going to work.

Overall a great game with to refuesd flanks doing what they do best.

Cheers
CAL
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:37 pm 
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There's nothing wrong with taking Titans or Aircraft in the Mud-Marine challenge... just make a list that 'works' without needing Thunderhawks or Landing Craft as a crutch.

Sounds like a fun game though.

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Honda
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:11 pm 
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As far as outcomes go my onservations, the shadowswords where a major game influence. even using terrain I was unable to stay away from them and had little weapons to destroy them.


Also, you might consider taking a Strike cruiser for that first turn orbital bombardment. It can put  quite a dent in an artillery company.

Thanx for the write up!

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Chroma
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:46 am 
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Finally got in a "Mud" Marine playtest fight (well, there was *one* Terminator Detachment, my opponent says he never leaves the Battle Barge without them!)

Please take a look!

Mud Marines vs Eldar

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:30 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 08 2006,22:37)
QUOTE
There's nothing wrong with taking Titans or Aircraft in the Mud-Marine challenge... just make a list that 'works' without needing Thunderhawks or Landing Craft as a crutch.

Indeed, I specifically allowed Aircraft and Titans, just not Air Assaults and Teleporting.

I freely admit that I'm an airhead, and I take any and every chance I get to bring air to the party, but I also admit that I'm less than impressed with most titans (just don't like the idea of them, mostly).

So, what went right from the Marine PoV, and where did the eldar list fall apart in your game, chroma?

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Bombot
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:44 am 
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Well I took the following ?mud marine? force to battle against my friend?s Speed Freaks on Sunday:

Tactical plus Supreme Commander and Hunter 475
Tactical plus Chaplain 350
Devastator plus Hunter 325
Scouts 150
Bikes plus Chaplain 250
Land Speeders 200
Whirlwinds 300
Predator Annihilators 300
Reaver titan 650
Warhound titan 250

TOTAL 3250 (OOPS! ? it was meant to be 3000)

I swept to victory with a crushing 3-0 win in the third turn.  Nick was left wondering what went wrong ? and today I found out as I started to write out what was going to be a battle report.  I took too many points!  That will teach me not to print off my army list at work and instead try to remember it and add it up in my head when I?m in a hurry.

So yeah, mud marines are great when you take along a free Warhound ;)

PS - the Reaver and Predators won the armour fight hands down.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:13 pm 
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I think we can all see that a marine army with the support of titans is a viable option.

I've been playing with my all marine force I posted earlier in the thread. I'm looking to get a game with an opponent that uaually gives me a close game to see if a total 'mud marine' force will work.
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Bombot
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:05 pm 
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If we are going to hamstring Marines further by disallowing titans as well as teleporting and air assaults, then I question the point of the exercise.  As I said elsewhere, the Marines are not the Imperial Guard.

Still, I?ve got a list ready with more armour and less point on titans.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:49 pm 
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These SMs are still in the MUD !?!? ?Some one better order them, to hit the showers ! :;): ?But really, we've gamed with SMs with no T/Hawks, Pods and Dropship/LC, and they did fine. ?And as I said, we only use Titans if both sides do. ?In the old days, the side with no Titan vs. an OPFOR with ... would be in deep trouble ! But DWWFY ! :D




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Mephiston
 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:02 pm 
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(Bombot @ Nov. 20 2006,14:05)
QUOTE
If we are going to hamstring Marines further by disallowing titans as well as teleporting and air assaults, then I question the point of the exercise. ?As I said elsewhere, the Marines are not the Imperial Guard.

Still, I?ve got a list ready with more armour and less point on titans.

If that is the intention then I shall give up and start up my testing of Ulthwe again.

I've allways been pretty sure that marines supported by Titans and Navy work. What I thought we wanted to know is could a pure marine army supply enough AT and assault power to win against all comers.

Good luck with the experiment.
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