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Blood Angels v2.12

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:14 am 
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Actually I think it was BlackLegion but I digress! :D

Anyway, I just found E&Cs view on THTs so I'm open to including them.

So are most people in favour of this change? If so I'll update the list and post it at the start of the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:25 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Only Death Company and Furioso have Frenzied in the current list.

Actually the Compendium list is very badly wrong in missing out frenzied for many units that have it. See the Blood Angels pdf at the start of this thread (towards the top of the 2nd page), the following units have frenzied: Assault, Bike, Death Company, Devastator, Scout, Tactical, Terminator, Dreadnought. Take note Dobbsy - this really needs to be fixed for the next Compendium.

pati wrote:
I think 2 Bloodstrike missile/turn is a better solution -with 1/turn it will be over-expensive

No! 2 shots per turn would be excessive and unrepresentative over the course of the game, a Storm Raven only carries 4 of these missiles. The Thunderbolt is a similar case - it carries 4 single shot anti-tank rockets but in epic this is translated to being able to fire one per turn. A single AT3+ attack per turn is still powerful but if this change is found to underpower the Storm Raven the points for the formation could be adjusted. I think it'll probably be fine as is though.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:46 am 
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Well crap. That scratches my BatReps :)
time to start fresh. Thanks GlynG for the heads up. That does really need to get addressed in the compendium asap.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:47 am 
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I've adjusted the compendium listing and placed in the original thread and have advertised for a new sub-AC in a separate thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:29 am 
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Ben, your thoughts would be welcome considering you've previously shepherded this list.

I don't generally comment on EUK army list development anymore due to a long forgotten feud with Dave, but a few brief thoughts-

- storm ravens work a bit like vultures, wouldn't give them unlimited shots personally because their use then becomes less tactically interesting.
- dreads more expensive because they're just better :-)
- assault marines were priced at 275 originally and came down after testing to 250. That's the same price as EUK have used for years with no complaints.
- Thunderhawk transporters should be added

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:40 am 
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No possibility you might take back shepherding the list Ben? The list is probably nearly finished so little work would be involved and I can't think of anyone more qualified.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:15 am 
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GlynG wrote:
No possibility you might take back shepherding the list Ben?

Nope. I'm not getting back involved with NetEA development unless a lot changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:32 pm 
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FTI: The updated document in OP lacks a cost on the Storm Ravens. I expect they are still 300pts

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:01 am 
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On the Stormraven issue I think it wouldn't be a bad option to make them One shot 75cm range. They're armed with 4 missiles underwing but if we boost the range a tad and say they unleash them all at once it might be a little fairer on opponents. It forces BA players to be careful with their shots each turn or give a bigger hit in one turn similar to the Vulture. If you have 3-4 SRs in a formation 4x one shot vehicles adds up to a LOT of firepower - it's almost like a flying Land Raider to degree.
Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:14 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
On the Stormraven issue I think it wouldn't be a bad option to make them One shot 75cm range. They're armed with 4 missiles underwing but if we boost the range a tad and say they unleash them all at once it might be a little fairer on opponents. It forces BA players to be careful with their shots each turn or give a bigger hit in one turn similar to the Vulture. If you have 3-4 SRs in a formation 4x one shot vehicles adds up to a LOT of firepower - it's almost like a flying Land Raider to degree.
Thoughts?


AFAIK they are already single shot weapons?

As they are now, their firepower is considerably better than Land Raiders, notwithstanding the fact that they can be planetfalled into range/LOF.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:58 am 
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Sorry yes I meant a One shot x1 attack, like a Vulture. Maybe increase the to-hit stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:02 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Sorry yes I meant a One shot x1 attack, like a Vulture. Maybe increase the to-hit stat.


Maybe something like 2x Bloodstrike Missiles 60 cm/AT3+, Single shot?

How about reducing their armour to 4+ not reinforced and adding TRA (as they have 12 all round in 40k)?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:13 am 
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Yep that could work too. Anything to reduce the flying "Land Raider."

My idea was just a start really.

What are other people's thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:41 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Maybe something like 2x Bloodstrike Missiles 60 cm/AT3+, Single shot?

I like this, seems a good compromise.

Given that a 40k Bloodstrike Missile is similar in anti-tank capabilities to a lascannon two of them firing together seems about right at AT3+, whereas the current stats are too much.

LordotMilk wrote:
How about reducing their armour to 4+ not reinforced and adding TRA (as they have 12 all round in 40k)?

I hadn't associated thick rear armour with the Storm Raven but if it has 12 rear armour perhaps it should.

A Storm Raven has equivalent front and side armour in 40k compared to a Predator or Vindicator, but better all-round armour in 40k (12) compared to a Predator or Vindicator (average 11), so there some justification in it having better armour.

Like the Thunderhawk it also has 'Ceramite Armour' designed to with-stand the extreme heat of re-entry that means melta weapons don't get the significantly better close range armour penetration. With 5+ reinforced this would be reflected in that the Storm Raven would have a save against Melta Weapons in Epic.

I don't really get the 'flying Land Raider' comparison, certainly not in terms of it's armour. Looking at the numbets If shot at by 10 regular shots:
5 x 4+ save targets would die
5.6 5+ Reinforced Armour targets would die
2.5 4+ Reinforced Armour targets would die

So 5+ Reinforced is better than 4+, but only slightly so and nowhere near Land Raider standards.

I'm fine with the survivability it has now, but it'll have to be a judgement call of whoever takes on the list (plus the Grey Knights champion and Dobbsy).


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:12 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
Maybe something like 2x Bloodstrike Missiles 60 cm/AT3+, Single shot?

I like this, seems a good compromise.

Agreed.

GlynG wrote:
Given that a 40k Bloodstrike Missile is similar in anti-tank capabilities to a lascannon two of them firing together seems about right at AT3+, whereas the current stats are too much.

Cool. We're off to a good start then.

GlynG wrote:
I hadn't associated thick rear armour with the Storm Raven but if it has 12 rear armour perhaps it should.

A Storm Raven has equivalent front and side armour in 40k compared to a Predator or Vindicator, but better all-round armour in 40k (12) compared to a Predator or Vindicator (average 11), so there some justification in it having better armour.

Like the Thunderhawk it also has 'Ceramite Armour' designed to with-stand the extreme heat of re-entry that means melta weapons don't get the significantly better close range armour penetration. With 5+ reinforced this would be reflected in that the Storm Raven would have a save against Melta Weapons in Epic.

OK this is a fair outcome too.

GlynG wrote:
I don't really get the 'flying Land Raider' comparison, certainly not in terms of it's armour.

:D Don't take it literally, no I was spit-balling around the weaponry it brings to the table being similar in output to the Lascannons of the LR plus the troop transport effect - the armour was obviously not in the same field of my logic. :)

I think we can start small on the changes to the unit and just tinker with it's Bloodstrikes to begin with and see how it fairs from there.

BTW is there a Grey Knights list on the go? I'm not sure the Ordos AC is even aware they have been transferred to his remit. I mean I'm happy to keep them in the SM lists if needs be but not bothered either way. In relation to the SR, keeping the GK as Marines will at least be one task made easier. :)


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