Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Thunderhawk Transporter

 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Indeed, redundancy was the word I failed to find there. :)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:40 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
It's a question of balance and making the army list(s) work in Epic, not 40K rules or "realism" vis a vis 40K technology.  It has to fit between the Thawk and the LC or it has no place in the game.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(nealhunt @ Jun. 13 2008,20:40)
QUOTE
It's a question of balance and making the army list(s) work in Epic, not 40K rules or "realism" vis a vis 40K technology.  It has to fit between the Thawk and the LC or it has no place in the game.

True, but I don't see artificially nerfing the armour save (Against the fluff, 40k stats, etc) as being the critical thing that'll find it a niche.

Personally, I reckon its niche is in dropping the limited number of formations that can ride in 2 Rhinos ; Devestators in 2 Rhinos for example would find the Landing Craft an excellent transport, or in a squadron of two you could drop a single Tactical formation with a Hunter.

Its niche isn't in heavy lifting like the Landing Craft, but medium lifting... now that may fit ill with the usual Epic formation sizes, but the Landing Craft exists as a solid, very heavily armoured, medium lift transport.



I think Hena has possibly become fixated upon the sentence in Imperial Armour 3 that says the vehicle isn't normally used in a combat situation... but when you get down to it, the scope of an Epic battle doesn't give you the kind of time required for a non-combat aircraft to get in and out of the rear echelons of the battle zone.

So what I'm saying is, if it appears in an Epic army list, then we're seeing one of the rare occasions when a Thunderhawk Transporter is being called directly into a hot area.

Messing about with stats to the detriment of the representational aspect of the game should be avoided, unless balance is an absolutely critical driving force for change.



Hena: You've really never lost a single Thunderhawk Gunship to AA fire? I've lost dozens...

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
That is what the armour reduction does. It makes it less "safe" to fly through AA fire.


I know what it does. :)

I just disagree that you, or I, or anyone outside of the GW studio, have the right to change the armour save of the vehicle, which is after all, identical to a Thunderhawk Gunship's armour and damage capacity, complete with the immunity to Melta weapons.

If Jervis were asked and he said ok, then I'd think it was fine, of course. Hmmmmm.  ???

Personally, I reckon the FF 5+ already does well to dissuade people from using the T-Trans as a hot-drop vehicle, as compared with the Landing Craft (Which is the ultimate Marine Hot-Dropper, with 4DC & FF3+)... Putting the armour save nerf on top of that is just unnessesary and unrepresentative IMHO.

As far as I can remember, I've never lost a Thunderhawk with troops in it.

You're a very, very lucky man.





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:49 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 726
Location: London

(Hena @ Jun. 13 2008,21:25)
QUOTE
Epic scale allows you to use it in "warm" LZ. Meaning places with little or no AA defence so that they can drop their cargo without getting shot too much. That is what the armour reduction does. It makes it less "safe" to fly through AA fire.


then whats the point in taking them? any place that is going to be "AA" light is also going to be light on enemy troops and with marines that is going to be a wasted formation, marines are a strike force shouldn't they fly in kill stuff and get out?

As far as I can remember, I've never lost a Thunderhawk with troops in it. And I have put them in places where they possibly should have. I have taken 1 point of damage many times though before dropping troops, but that's all.


wow, so you've never taken a crictial hit? not in all that time, how many games?





_________________
"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
wow, so you've never taken a crictial hit? not in all that time, how many games?


Statistically, for every time a loaded T-hawk takes a point of damage, he should lose it to a Critical on in every six games... if he takes two Thunderhawks that rate raises to something like one in every three games (Discounting those games where the T-Hawk takes no damage and lands unharmed).

Either he's lucky, he's hugely skilled, or his opponents don't believe in AA. :)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Ok, some "pseudo science" here:- in order to transport heavier loads (Rhinos) , the transporter has been stripped of the various bits of armour protecting vital areas as well as the heavier weaponry. Equally, the presence of the Rhinos allows the troops to be dropped off near the action rather than actually in it. For this reason if no other, I really prefer the reduced armour and weaponry stats.

Personally, I view the THawk a little like the Douglas DC3 which is one of the longest serving aircraft of all time and which has specifically been used as both transport and gunship (amoung other things) - you use a standard airframe and powerplant, modified for different purposes. If anything, I would actually suggest that the transporter is the "standard" version with the THawk being a modified "Assault" version.

As for the luck with the THawks, while mildly surprised, I don't think this totally implausible. It depends on so many factors, including how much suppression was applied, how Hena's group view and use aircraft, the frequency of their use, style of play (competitive, campaign, "fluffy fun", rule/army testing etc).

And a quick note on the stats:- Most AA is 5+ or 6+, but assuming 5+, this will generate a hit every three shots, which will strike home once every four hits, which will go critical once in a blue moon (or every 72 shots). If he flies through 2 guns / four shots each time, and does it on average twice a game, he might be unlucky enough to see a critical once every 12 games, and rather less frequently if the AA is weaker or skillfully avoided (or if it were me, say once every 4-6 games - well I am not that unlucky ?:p )





_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:52 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Not that it's all that important, but...

Crits - Roughly 1/2 chance of a point of damage, 1/6 chance per point of a critical.  That's only 1 crit every 12 hits.  If you don't take more than, say 2-3 5+AA shots per landing, you could go through a lot more than 12 games without a kill and still not blow the odds.

Considering that a Land/Shoot action would allow the THTs to land 30cm from the target, it's probably not that hard to get the number of AA attacks pretty low.  Even if you want to support an assault after landing, you can still drop a full 15cm away.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire
Don't forget Hena says he's not suffered a crit with troops aboard not that he'd never suffered one.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
why do I feel to make a comment about bible and ultraconservative christians here :)). The stats are changed to suit E:A if needed. In this case there is need.


Holy wow, I'm on the conservative side! ; I completely disagree that there's a need.

There's only a need because you want there to be a need, because you've got a particular vision of what the vehicle is in mind.

As ever, I think that if you do that, you've no longer got a Thunderhawk Transporter, you've got a Hennahawk Transporter...

Do note that the 5+RA save was on it, when the list won the army competition.

And I'm sure they both looked at the stats of the units included real carefully. :D





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
I'm kinda afraid to weigh in on this issue, but...

Right now, I fall into the lighter armor/reduced HB load camp, even though I usually fall into the "port the 40k stats over" side for Epic list and unit design.  

The biggest reason for this is the way the vehicles are carried - on the belly of the beast, where they are exposed to fire.  I'm not actually thinking in terms of killing the THT, I'm looking at the chances of the THT suffering a mission kill (a hit on the transported vehicles, or the winch/grapple arms, resulting in a loss of the transported unit/s).  Once you've lost the cargo, there's not much point of continuing the drop.

A land raider is less likely than a rhino to suffer a penetrating hit, but the weak link is really the grapple arms that appear to be the only thing holding a vehicle in place.  A hit to one of those would be of zero consequence to the flight capabilities of the THT, but would be absolutely catastrophic to the occupants of the transported vehicle when they imitate a drop pod and take a 3km free-fall to the planet's surface.  That's a mission kill, with no damage to the aircraft.

The Heavy bolter issue I can go either way on, but there's effectively 2 twin HBs covering every approach to the aircraft.  Why say 1 hb covers front and left arcs, one covers front and right arcs, one covers left and rear arcs, and one covers right and rear arcs, when you can just say 2 with a 360 arc?  Isn't simpler better?

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:25 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Prompted by the recent revelation that this would be an excellent addition to the Raven Guard army list...

====

It seems like it's down primarily to armor save and point costs, with some quibbling over bolter stats.  4+ RA makes the most sense based strictly on the 40K stats and the airframe.  However, 5+RA can be justified by various methods, including reduced maneuverability from heavier loads and exposed cargo.


4+:  Makes it as tough as a Thawk on a per-unit basis and a formation of 2 becomes a lot tougher.  2 are better than 1 in an assault.  In addition, a formation of 2 can carry more with respect to total points transported than a single Thawk - up to 60% more depending on payload but usually closer to 30%.  Even with reduced firepower, they have to cost substantially more.  2 for 250-275 points would seem about right.

However, the ~125 cost also means that formations larger than 2 has little or no use.  A formation of 3 or more competes with a Landing Craft for similar capacity and at ~125 per THT, the LC is a better value.  That's not necessarily a problem, but it's a pretty small niche for the THT.

4 THTs becomes cost-prohibitive in GT games.  Even with something like "275 for 2, +100 per additional THT" you're looking at 475 points.  They'd only carry about the same points as a Landing craft.  They wouldn't be appreciably more durable on the initial attack than a LC.  In later turns they could be thrown into even the heaviest flak to provide CAS, but I still don't see that balancing out.

5+:  Weaker than a Thawk on a per-unit basis, but a formation of 2 should be almost as tough with respect to durability an initial insertion and probably a bit tougher on following turns for CAS.  Again, they would carry more payload and be better in assaults (less so than with 4+RA, but still a bit better).  With the same or slightly less firepower, they would probably be okay at the same price for Thawks - 2 for 200.

In contrast to the 4+ stats, at ~100 points each a formation of 3 THTs makes for a viable alternative to a LC.  It has less capacity (ballpark it at ~2/3 of the points with less flexibility in what may be carried) and it's more likely to lose part of its payload on the way in.  However, it's notably cheaper, better in the assault, and would have a little better ranged firepower.  Also, the loss of capacity isn't as big of a deal as it seems at first.  A fully loaded LC is a HUGE chunk of points, whereas 3 loaded THTs is a more reasonable investment.

If you want to go just a bit more expensive, 4 THTs at ~400 points versus a Landing Craft is also a viable option.  The THTs are more expensive and more likely to have one shot down and still only carry about the same number of points with less flexibility.  However, they have more firepower, more assault ability, and will be more effective in CAS later in the game.  It's probably not feasible in anything but huge games.

At only 100 points each, THTs are cheap enough start potentially competing with other CAS options but I think that the revised Marauder, Tbolts and the support Thawk variants still offer better options in that respect.  The THTs are quite a bit tougher than the IN options but have considerably less firepower.

===

It seems to me that regardless of the non-gameplay considerations the 5+RA for ~100 points provides a lot more strategic and tactical options in an army list.

Heavier or more heavily armed is self-limiting.




_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net