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Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:36 pm 
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All of that or DEEP STRIKE!!!!! Which I love the idea of.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Steve, honestly, there is a long history here and a reason why I took the formations that I did which are covered in prior discussions. I'm not new to Epic and I already understand all of the comments you are making about how to play Epic in general. However, you're jumping in and adding your comments without any context.

Yep I'm capable of reading

Seems that you picked an armylist to support your opinions that they are overpriced/lack AT/are underpowered rather than actually seeing how those formations can be used effectively. Take any 600+ pt formation in a Marine list of any colour and not build the list around it and you'll struggle. Pick a list with few activations and little AT and you will struggle versus any tank heavy list with more activations

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:38 pm 
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I took units that Dobbsy specifically recommended / asked that I take for playtesting purposes. Since you're capable of reading, I guess you already knew that but decided to write irrelevant comments anyway.

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Last edited by Xenocidal Maniac on Fri May 09, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:39 pm 
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Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
As you and I discussed via chat, Jimmy, I LOVE this idea. LOVE it. I would take teleporting 8-stand assault formations all day long. And not even necessarily because it would be effective, but because it would be FUN. And you're absolutely right - as I mentioned to you privately, at the moment, I feel like I am simply playing a gimped version of the codex list with large assault squads. Adding teleporting assault formations would make me feel like a Blood Angel!

That unit I had in my last batrep mopping up Blitz Brigades? Well, if I had two or even three of those arriving by teleport, WOW! What fun. Then the Thunderhawks could be used to drop Devastators and / or tacticals, making it a true in your face assault list.


To note, 8 strong BA Assault Marine formations would have to go if you have this I feel. In addition, for theme and balance Land Raiders would need to be out in favor of the closer ranged Redeemer.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:44 pm 
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I think both would be premature. Either drop the long ranged support and keep the formations larger or drop the size and keep ranged support. To me it'd be an either or but I can see the concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:46 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
As you and I discussed via chat, Jimmy, I LOVE this idea. LOVE it. I would take teleporting 8-stand assault formations all day long. And not even necessarily because it would be effective, but because it would be FUN. And you're absolutely right - as I mentioned to you privately, at the moment, I feel like I am simply playing a gimped version of the codex list with large assault squads. Adding teleporting assault formations would make me feel like a Blood Angel!

That unit I had in my last batrep mopping up Blitz Brigades? Well, if I had two or even three of those arriving by teleport, WOW! What fun. Then the Thunderhawks could be used to drop Devastators and / or tacticals, making it a true in your face assault list.


To note, 8 strong BA Assault Marine formations would have to go if you have this I feel. In addition, for theme and balance Land Raiders would need to be out in favor of the closer ranged Redeemer.


I could see that. Six-stands, then? Or just drop it all back to four?

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:55 pm 
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Actually, you don't HAVE TO buy the +2 Assault Marine units. So, it's just 6 units, with an upgrade :)
They should be 6, not 4, to avoid the popcorn effect of the Codex Marine's 175p activation-burner Assault MArine formations. The mainstay of the BA army is the strong Assault formation, not a lot of small one!

I support the teleporting Assault guys :D very good idea -the best since the start of the discussion about Assault Marines! just need to be balanced well -with Termies+Commanders, they can be devastating..


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:59 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Steve, honestly, there is a long history here and a reason why I took the formations that I did which are covered in prior discussions. I'm not new to Epic and I already understand all of the comments you are making about how to play Epic in general. However, you're jumping in and adding your comments without any context.

Yep I'm capable of reading

Seems that you picked an armylist to support your opinions that they are overpriced/lack AT/are underpowered rather than actually seeing how those formations can be used effectively. Take any 600+ pt formation in a Marine list of any colour and not build the list around it and you'll struggle. Pick a list with few activations and little AT and you will struggle versus any tank heavy list with more activations


Just to play peace-maker here.

XM: Steve's not meaning offense here. I too found some issues with the approach you took and from your bat rep I don't feel you did as much mutual support as I think you should. I also think that the bulked out assault and BTS might not of been as wise as a burner formation. That's neither here nor there. In addition, there's a difference in reading a report and playing the game that would be immediately clear as to why/how that wasn't able to be pulled off. I know you're no schmo when it comes to playing the game. There's an art to playing just as there's an art to doing a batrep. Who did what to whom isn't as important to riting up the WHY.

Steve: I know you're not meaning to but your post does come off rather dismissive to someone that's putting a lot of energy into trying to get traction for real serious testing on lists. We all should be careful what we write as there's little nuance to the internet and things can get misconstrued really quickly. Last thing we want to do is be coming off like a bunch of prats saying, "you're holding it wrong" (not saying you are, just that without the face to face nuance of conversation, we all have to chose our words carefully, that's all). You've got some real points / concerns about list construction and strategy. I for one would love to see those asked in his batrep thread and possible alternatives be put forward. I know I'd love to learn from your insights, mate.

anyways let's get back to the topic at hand: making the BA a first class approved list! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Good call, pati. You are right. Six stands sounds great. So, 300 for six teleporting assault stands and a chappie? I like it!! :)

Dobbsy, let's make this happen!!! :)

Thanks, Jimmy for the peace-maker post. Yes, you are right - I truly have spent a lot of time and energy on this, and then to have my comments dismissed out of hand by someone in the peanut gallery is demoralizing and frustrating. Writing those batreps takes me about two hours, not to mention the time spent taking pictures during the game, writing notes, etc.

The reason for the big formations was that I was running a list very close to a list that Dobbsy specifically asked me to use. The BTS unit, in particular, is a unit that Dobbsy requested I use. I would not normally have taken a list like this.

As far as the supporting / crossfiring of the Ork BTS, again, I think it's hard to understand unless you were actually there. That Big Warband was close by, which meant lots of potential supporting Ork fire, and I was very limited in what units I had available to dedicate to taking the Stompa Mob out. I had to at least make feints at his objectives to take some of the heat off of the units in my half of the table, which, as you can see, worked out when he pulled his big warband and Stompa mob away to deal with them, thus giving me TSNP. When I am making feints at enemy objectives and trying to protect my own at the same time, with seven activations, it becomes very difficult to do much else.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:29 pm 
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Keep the Fast Attack upgrade as it is now ;) good for megageddon/big battles!


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:33 pm 
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There's nothing wrong with the Fast Attack as it stands now. In addition, for no solicited reason I offer the opinion that people under utilize bikes in EA.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:49 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Fast Attack as it stands now. In addition, for no solicited reason I offer the opinion that people under utilize bikes in EA.


BA Bikers are scouts, so they are much better -I never saw them as a garrison unit, but may worth a try..


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:52 pm 
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Unfortunately, BA Bikers are not scouts to the best of my knowledge. But, yeah, I take bikes all the time in casual games. They're great.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:09 pm 
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Giving some more thought to the teleporting assault marines idea....

I love it, and I am all for its inclusion, however... I am wondering how it would help the issue of BA being light on anti-tank and having a hard time destroying BTS units. I'm not posing this rhetorically - I really am soliciting ideas.

So, let's see.... teleport in two 6-stand squads of assault marines, one of which will have a captain... hope you go first, then I guess with the first activation, drop off the Death Company, then retain the initiative and declare an assault with the three units? Could work. We also have to factor in that you are likely to take blast markers coming in on the teleport, possibly putting you down as much as -2 combat res in the ensuing assault.

Just sort of thinking out loud here. Any other ideas how teleporting assault marines would help out?

Again, I still think it's a great idea that I would love to see implemented, just wondering if it tackles the real issue affecting BA competitiveness.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:27 pm 
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pati wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Fast Attack as it stands now. In addition, for no solicited reason I offer the opinion that people under utilize bikes in EA.


BA Bikers are scouts, so they are much better -I never saw them as a garrison unit, but may worth a try..


Not in this list, mate

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