no.
if you immobilise a vehicle, all further results count as weapon destroyed (and likewise, if you run out of weapons, a weapon destroyed immobilises the vehicles)
when a vehicle is immobilised and loses all its weapons, it is destroyed. a monolith can suffer an infinite number of weapon destroyed results and not have lost all its weapons, so glancing hits cannot possibly destroy the vehicle, while an achilles can be killed with 3 weapon destroyed and an immobilised (4 if it takes a stormbolter aswell)

and a monolith ignores the extra Armour-Penetration for Monsterous Creatures, which the Achilles does not. that is one of the many characteristics that are folded into the "Macroweapon" attack rule, so ignoring all types of macroweapon is more powerful than it is in 40k (which i will again point out, everyone thinks is too overpowered)

in some situations (being shot at by a lascannon) the achilles is harder to kill, in most every other circumstance, a monolith is harder to kill.

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So 3+RA for the Achilles makes sence vs the 4+RA of the Monolith which also ignores the abilities of MW and Lance and also degrades TK to just MW.

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not really. 3+ RA is a better armour save than a monoliths against normal (ie: non-specialist) weaponry, which a monolith is better at surviving than an achilles. it is also basically as good as the Living Metal rule for a monolith against any specialist weaponry that isnt a titan-killer.

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Jaggedtoothgrin: You're ignoring that whole -1 to all damage rolls thing this tank has going on. You're going to have to get really lucky, again and again and again to kill this tank with just glances alone (Like, you have to roll 5 or so 6's for damage rolls before you can upgrade to killing it, meaning it'll take 25-30 glancing hits before you kill it from glances alone), and if you manage to penetrate its armour, it's flat out harder to kill than a monolith again due to that -1 to damage rolls.

Oh, and all Stunned damage results are automatically downgraded to Shaken results, because it comes with "extra armour" as standard (Meaning a glancing hit could be modified downwards by as much as -4), heh.

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And anyway, ignoring all this number crunching nonsense....

This tank is really, really tough, according to the background it is the most heavily armoured tank the Imperium has ever produced.

In 40k, it's the toughest tank you can field (Barring War Engines with multiple damage points).

3+RA seems to be the best fit without needing to invent special rules.

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i am not ignoring the -1 thing. that is why i said that a penetrating hit from a lascannon is more likely to kill a monolith than an achilles. it only applies to the things that penetrate it in the first place (ie: str9-10/D weaponry to begin with) because against anything smaller, the monolith quite simply cannot be killed, and the achilles can. the achilles is much more vulnerable to being killed in melee by a carnifex, or say, nightbringer, and against things like a trygon or tomb spyder, is actually able to be killed, while a monolith is not.

i also said that a 3+ RA does not represent this to an adequate level, because it is pretty much better than the monoliths 4+RA/LM save against any non-titan-killer weaponry. it is also TOO GOOD.

you're trying to build an epic version of the sort of bullshit that is ruining 40k, and that most tournaments (atleast on this side of the world) refuse to use because they are unbalanced. and the Achilles is widely accepted as one of the worst of the lot (certainly of the recent batch)
so suggesting its epic rules should closely match the 40k ones is a path of foolishness.

the difference in survivability between this and a land raider should fall within the range of difference between a leman russ and a land raider. (ie: they should have at best the sort of boost that Thick Rear Armour provides)

3+ RA does not exist anywhere, for a reason. that reason is not invalidated because forgeworld release ridiculous unplaytested stats for a unit in a different game that even the most power-mad players of that game (ie: the forgeworld devotees) largely consider to be too good.

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Indeed.
That's because under most circumstances, if faced with similar volumes of fire, a LR Achilles in 40k will likely live longer than a Monolith.


Shrug, it probably should.


Most forgeworld rules/models are notably underpowered, in my experience.

Compare FW's old Baneblade rules to what GW did with the Baneblade, for example.

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I will interject here and state that a Daemon Prince has 3+ RA

Thank you thank you. I am here all week

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In all seriousness, this tank will take two turns to get anywhere at full throttle, and in some cases probably will not see offensive action till the third turn.

At 400 points for the formation, without an air entry option, not backed up with an air assault, and limited to a mud marine force, I at least think it should be trialled. It is a hard-ass formation that will take the hits to move up a table. It's 15cm range is a huge limitation, and yes, once it gets in it will be nasty, yet first it has to get there and not be killed or out manoeuvred.

Are the people against this purely seeing the stats or are they placing those stats into perspective to the list that has them in it?

It is a double edged choice at this point for the IFs.
- The 400 points will really effect activations, and from what I have seen, a mud marine force needs activations (more-so than most other forces) if it is to remain competitive.
- On the other hand, it is one of the hardiest formations that should be able to make it to an objective without being on the verge of breaking like every other sub 6 unit formation

Perspective, perspective, perspective.

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RA 3+ or not it's till an easy to suppress AV and, if not Fearless, can be hacked down like everything else. I say go for it.

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The problem with 3+ Reinforced armour is that it is VASTLY better than 4+ Reinforced; 11% chance of failure vs 25% chance. That's more than twice as tough, a massive, massive jump in capability.

What about 2+ non-RA? That's 16% chance to fail.

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Unfortunately it's also against the background, which suggests the Achilles is especially strong against macro weapons, whereas 2+ non-reinforced would be instantly killed by a MW.

Heh, maybe just give it RA4+ with living metal.

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RIght. Shoulda cought that...

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That really is what it effectively has in 40k, but I think an invulnerable save represents the improved toughness perfectly well.