The Mud-Marine Challenge |
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Bombot
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge  Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:40 pm |
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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:06 pm
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Location: Reading, UK
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Even so, the speed of Marines means you can really make your opponent pay for their mistakes. Mistakes happen, so this is a very real strength.
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Honda
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:09 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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The point is that the Guard player overextended himself and had no nearby formations to support him. Had he moved 10cm less I wouldn't have been able to pull the manouver off.
Relying on your opponent to help you isn't a sound stratergy
I'm not denying that the IG player did something he shouldn't have, what I was recognizing is how you coordinated forces to deal with the threat.
YOUR actions are what other SM players should look to use to be more effective. You could have easily sent out a single unit added a BM and fenced with what is not an insignificant formation.
So...you can ignore the compliment if you wish, but the setting up of multiple hammer blows in support range of other SM formations is a one of the "tricks" that SM players, mud or otherwise, should keep in their hip pocket.
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:55 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Relying on your opponent to help you isn't a sound strategy.
But setting an attack up like what you did is sound strategy. Likewise, capitalizing on any mistakes your opponent makes.
Now, if you set up your opponent to make that mistake and kick his virtual teeth in once he does, that's when you're ready to play Tau.
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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:04 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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I had a Mud Marine game last night against the Eldar 1.7.
All experimental rules were used, plus the normal Marine suggestions, and in addition:
- Dreadnoughts were allowed 4-unit formations for 200 pts.
- Dreadnoughts were allowed Multi-Meltas.
My army:
- Tactical detachment with SC & LC Razorback.
- Tactical detachment with Chaplain.
- Devestator detachment with Librarian & LC Razorback.
- Attack Bike detachment with Librarian.
- Predator Annihilator detachment.
- Dreadnought detachment with Twin Lascannons & Missile laucnchers.
- Dreadnought detachment with Assault cannons.
- Dreadnought detachment with Multi-Meltas.
- Landspeeder detachment with 5x Multi-Melta Landspeeders.
- Landspeeder detachment with 1x Land Speeder Typhoon & 4x Land Speeder Tornados.
- Whirlwind detachment.
- Total 2990 pts.
My concept was to out-activate and out-manuever the enemy (11 activations), using the Dreadnoughts to anchor one flank, and the infantry on the other.
I gambled that my enemy would not bring aircraft, and got lucky! 
I still lost 3-1 (BTS, Blitzkrieg, T&H, vs Blitzkrieg) on turn 4 though.
Some tactical manuevering forced a turn four despite me having lost 3/4ths of my army by that time while only having taken out 1/3rd of the enemy force... by the last two turns the Eldar were out-activating me.
It was a really great game however that ran over three hours, and both my opponent and myself agreed that Dreadnought formations are the way to go with Mud-Marines, so that they're not slowing down the rest of the formations (Although the formation that claimed my enemy's Blitz was my two remaining Assault Cannon Dreadnoughts, despite being the slowest formation on the field!).
In general, my problem was a combination of a few tactical mistakes, combined with the usual weakness of Marine armour ("Predators & Dreadnoughts don't have reinforced armour???" - My surprised but happy opponent, you can tell these units don't get fielded often in my group just from that comment!) and some non-typical dice rolls meant that my guys just wilted under enemy fire.
I'd be tempted to recomend 5+ RA for Preds & Dreads... they're just too fragile, especially as Marines are supposed to be adept at taking advantage of natural terrain to heighten their armour's effectiveness.
Overall, I lost a bit harder than I expected, but I like the list and will probably play variations on it for a while.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:46 am |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Good points, Lion ! Sometimes they lean into a well placed punch, making the damage that much worse ! Rommel in NA more then once played on the UK Tanker's predeliction to charge after the DAK's retreating Panzers ... only to be lured into a large AT Ambush starting with 37mm ATs, then 50mm, 75mm and finally - the deadly 88 ... A bad day for a Cav charge. And an interesting game E&C. Dreads slow speed makes them well suited for the Defense or put in a SPT by FIRE position, like an AT gun ...
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:14 am |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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And an interesting game E&C. Dreads slow speed makes them well suited for the Defense or put in a SPT by FIRE position, like an AT gun ...
I agree, that was my intended plan at the begining of the game... but a pair of Revenant Titans hopping into view sent them scurrying forwards a little, and a succession of Engagements & consolidations, or casualties (and breaking from BM's) followed by withdrawal moves saw the MultiMelta & Assault Cannon formations moving all the way across the board, while the Missile formation stayed to deal with the Revenants (Destroying one and breaking the other in turn two, which failed to rally on turn 3, which pretty much kept me fighting for another turn).
The only problem with dread formations is that they're still very fragile due to low unit strength combined with the usual moderate armour save. Each type of Dreadnought (Including the MM ones) had an opertunity to excell in their own particular niche during the game (Missile Dreads Sustaining to kill a Revenant, Assault Cannon Dreads using their flexible ranged firepower to molest a variety of enemy formations, MM Dreads either supporting fire into other engagements, or doubling into range and rolling some 6's to hit ).
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Honda
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:26 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
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@E&C
So given your activation advantage (which I think is a good way to field MM), do you recall how many times you were able to line up 1-2 punches that resulted in dead or nearly destroyed Eldar units?
Also, you list seems balanced. I know that you like the idea of dread formations, but my gut tells me that they really aren't a viable option for all the points you have listed. You should probably run this list again with the +5 RA Preds as that seems to be a fairly well supported upgrade.
Also, you might look into taking a configuration that is "overbalanced" in one aspect, then compensating for those formations weaknesses witth supporting formations.
Also I think the high activations configuration is one of the keys to using the SM effectively.
Thanx for the report.
Also, do you think you could post the Eldar's list?
I shall be taking my own lumps against an Eldar 1.8 list (probably Saim Hann) in the next couple of weeks.
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Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
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Legion 4
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:58 pm |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA
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Yes, I've always found the Dread's speed a bit of a hindrance ... but putting them in cover & SPT by Fire positions works ... ?It's a problem created by a 40K skirmish game vs. a larger game scale with Epic ... ? But the Models are cool ! And we adapt our tactics/use to their +'s & -'s ! ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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jfrazell
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:01 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:21 pm
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Yes, did he run a slow eldar list (lots of wraithguard, titans etc.) or Fast Attack (Wave serpent and jetbike soul train) ?
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:14 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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His list was basically a mechanised infantry force (Two large infantry units, one in falcons one in wave serpents), supported by skimmer tanks, a pair of Revenants, two units of Night Spinners, two cobra super-heavies. Oh and there were some Warp Spiders too.
No Avatar, no wraithgate, no farseer, no wraithguard, no wraithlords... it was an Aspect Warrior themed army basically.
If he reads this my opponent may jump in and post his full list and his own thoughts (Try not to gloat too much mate!), though I don't know if he's keeping current with this thread.
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iblisdrax
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:25 am |
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Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.
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The problem with giving Preds RA is balance...you would have to charge more for them, and probably reduce the speed...I always thought they were more of a light tank than a main battle tank like the Land Raider or the Leman Reuss.. But that is my opinion. 
ib
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Markconz
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:00 am |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
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Location: New Zealand
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I believe 5+ RA would be a good move for Vindis and Preds. This is another of those things (like Demolisher Cannons) where I can't understand why they were made so weak in EA in the first place. The difference between AV 13 for preds/vindis vs AV 14 for Leman Russ seems better suited to the 5+RA vs 4+RA values to me. It would also be a good way to encourage more use of the marine tanks. Land Raiders would still need something of course (like a 25-50 point drop).
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:04 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
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The difference between AV 13 for preds/vindis vs AV 14 for Leman Russ seems better suited to the 5+RA vs 4+RA values to me.
I agree (Obviously), Predators & Vindicators are underprotected in Epic... though I'd add Dreadnought as another unit that could do with 5+RA.
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Lion in the Stars
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Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:35 am |
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Hmmm... I'll have to play with that a bit. As a strict percentage, 5+RA (5/9 chance of saving, 55.55%) is slightly better than 4+ flat (50%), except when under Lance (?) fire which ignores the RA. OTOH, under MW fire, the RA still has a chance to survive. It's probably a toss-up mathematically which armor is better more of the time. It needs some serious playtesting.
In 40k at least, Dreads are way too lightly armored to be useful, and the current Epic armor reflects that. I support 5+RA on dreads.
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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"
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