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Space Marines.
Yes! 66%  66%  [ 21 ]
No! 31%  31%  [ 10 ]
I don't care, but I like to vote! 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 32

Space Marines.
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:31 pm 
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Granted I don't use that much tank formations, but pred annihilators tempt me. As there is that 12 AT shots in formation.


Try using them, you'll soon go back to the half of the army list that works. :)

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Steve54
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:33 pm 
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I think virtually anything can be supported in some way by the vast amounts of contradictary fluff GW pour out.
From what I remember of the Grey Knights novel don't their tactics basically consist of running at the enemy?

As for the Heresy novels the Marine engagements depicted there are often using 30000+ marines in combat which would fight somewhat differently.
From memory the majority of engagements that aren't sieges - killing the 'emperor'and  the battle at the end of book 2, or mopping up exercises - Whisperheads are drop pod assaults - BA, Emperors Children and BL all drop pod into Murder  and the assault on Istvaan 3

As for the Imperial Fists I was under the Impression they were very siege orientated?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:30 pm 
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I don't think we should be inferring too much from the Novels, as they do have a tendancy to be either contradictory or portray exceptional events.*

'Hard' fluff like Imperial Armour, the 40k Codexes, Index Astartes, the Epic:Armageddon rulebooks etc are my preferred source. All of these indicate that Marines should be able to work just as well as a ground-based force as they do in Air-Assaulting.


*Although I'm rather fond of giving the Landing Craft the AKA of 'Stormbird'. :)




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:31 pm 
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In the HH novels yes they drop into for the first wave, but after that its pretty all a ground based fight.

The only hot landing zone i can remember was the fight on Istvaan 3.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:06 pm 
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(The Grey Knights could afford to pretty much charge straight at that frankly Fantasy army.  The Fantasy army had nothing that could hurt them, until the magic-users came out to play.  GK Termies could run straight through a stone castle wall, never mind a half-timbered building.  Why should I pay a lot of attention to normally required tactics when the enemy can't hurt me?  

Read Dark Mechanicus, the second book in the series, and the GKs behave much more like real infantry, sneaking through abandoned tunnels, observing the target, and then assaulting the target head-on when that was the only option left to them.)

E&C:  I'm not sure that the current Landing Craft is large enough to be a stormbird.
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consectari
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 21 2006,12:31)
QUOTE
Granted I don't use that much tank formations, but pred annihilators tempt me. As there is that 12 AT shots in formation.


Try using them, you'll soon go back to the half of the army list that works. :)

I can say from personal experience that vs guard and Chaos, that preds & LRs, get one solid attack.  Then because they are at such close range, end up getting pounded.  

Due to small formation sizes, they are all but wiped out by the time they break.  Usually down to one or 2 units.

Being always outnumbered, I need a formation to be able to break an enemy formation and keep on fighting.  Currently, that isn't happening.

Usually, if I assault or get assaulted or fired on (let alone break), I'm left with a formation that can't accomplish anything.  If guard or Chaos formations break & rally, they still have a ton of units left in their formations.

I've had success 1 time with my armor (which I take every time, because that's what I want to use).  I took a formation of Termies w/ 4 LR upgrade & 2 Vindi upgrade.  First turn it broke the Choas BTS, but couldn't wipe it out.  Turn 2, it took some shots at an inf formation and did only minor damage.  In turn 3, it took a 3 round assault to beat that Chaos inf formation.  I had 3 units left after that.  

If you don't want to let them upgrade armor formation w/ AV that add more shots, then let them take something just to soak up some hits.  Razorbacks, Rhinos, anything!

We're gettin' killed out there!  :;):

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CAL001
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:07 pm 
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I agree totally with Consectari. As an armoured soldier I take a Mechanied heavy force to battle each time. I will always have LR and Preds in my army. I find the same thing occurs with my armour, it gets in the first shot, does some damage and then is written off for the remainder of the game due to its small size. This has a net effect on the game as I will always set up my forces as a series of combat teams, with an armoured formation supporting the advance of an infantry formation, with centralised artillery to lend support and a highly mobile reserve in the form of an air assault or terminators.
      I think that a change in size for armoured formations is warranted to make the marines more suited to ground based operations. Either as an upgrade or a change to the corps formation, and I would limit it to LR and Preds.
      I like the idea of being able to imbed armour into Tactical formations aswell. It fits with the marines small unit combined arms team and gives them the flexibility they require to get the job done. I have long been using Vindicators as an upgrade in my Tac formations to get that extra punch.

I look forward to seeing a list of proposed changes.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:42 pm 
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I look forward to seeing a list of proposed changes.


I'm willing to step up to the plate and have a go at this.

I'll have a go at preparing 3 different modifications sets to the current list, small, medium and large modifications lists (With the current ERC proposed changes being on the small end of the scale).

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:46 pm 
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Hena:  Outstanding!

E&C:  Sounds good, now get to work *whipcrack* :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Space Marines.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:04 pm 
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I don't want any "leman russ company of preds".


I quite agree.

The question is how to make these small formations function decently on the tabletop.

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