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Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points

 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Agreed - 250 for the first two, and 100 for further THawks is a good starting point.
This provides a good alternative to Landing Craft, while also inhibiting "spam".


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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:40 am 
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Sorry just to confirm, what stats for the 250pts for two option?

Bit late but personally never liked he idea of selectively toning down armour or weapon stats to meet a points value or theme. I'd rather all twin HBs on SM AC were the same or at least similar as with armour saves on like equipment bar any specific fluff to the contrary. That way stats are easy to remember, easy to teach and things are what they are. Why shouldn't a marine flyer with stacks of guns, the armour of a tank and crewed by fearless mofos be good at assaults and strafing anyone dumb enough to put there neck out. Just cost it accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:35 am 
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I believe it's:

Thunderhawk Transporter
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
WE, Aircraft Bomber 4+ 6+ 6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Heavy Bolter Array 15cm 2 x AA5+
Notes: DC2, Reinforced Armour, Transport: (2 Rhino chassis vehicles or 1 Land Raider chassis vehicle, in addition it may carry any infantry transported in those vehicles). Critical Hit Effect: The Thunderhawk’s control surfaces are damaged. The pilot loses control and the Thunderhawk crashes to the ground, killing all on board.The entire Thunderhawk Transporter formation is counted as one War Engine for the War Engine transport rule (e.g. one transported formation can be split between multiple aircraft within one Thunderhawk Transporter formation)

ortron wrote:
Why shouldn't a marine flyer with stacks of guns, the armour of a tank and crewed by fearless mofos be good at assaults and strafing anyone dumb enough to put there neck out. Just cost it accordingly.

End rant

It's due to the background Forge World have written for the THT, it's not meant to be used that way. To give you some quotes from the THT entry in IA2 2nd edition: the THT is a 'logistical support variant'....'transporters fly non-stop missions ferrying vehicles and supplies to the Space Marines on the ground.' And 'When entering a war zone, it is armed with heavy bolters for self defence, but it is not expected to engage the enemy.' It's focus is clearly meant to be transport and it not used offensively (as a bomber or to initiate air assaults when empty). If all 4 twin heavy bolters on each were represented a formation of 3 THT would have 12 x AP4+ shots and 12 x AA5+ shots (the average of 4 hits being enough to kill a Thunderhawk on average!). These stats would make them much too good at being a bomber, particularly with 4+ FF too (3 hits on average). A straight translation of stats wouldn't fit the background for the unit, so though not ideal the weapon stats are reduced.

Missing out or underpowering aircraft weapons is already common in epic e.g. where are the pair of wingtip lascannons and the 6 hellstrike missiles (which come as standard) which regular Thunderhawk's should have? Or the regular Thunderhawk in Epic just having a Battle Cannon rather than the more powerful Thunderhawk Cannon it has in 40k? There are already different aircraft heavy bolters stats on different aircraft, depending whether they are mounted all round or in a particular arc. Making the THT heavy bolters defensive only fits it's background so the weapons are consolidated and called a 'heavy bolter array'.


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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:43 am 
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Hmmm.. I guess our opinions differ somewhat but I do agree its designed as a logistic vehicle but then there isn't an armed force in the world that only uses equipment for the role it was designed for.

Regardless of the intent vs fluff vs actual capability a FF of 5+ is surely justified.

For the sake of preventing it being used as a dedicated bomber formation I guess I could tolerate removal of the 4x AP4+ shots, would prefer to keep 2x AP 4+ but whether logistic vehicle or not, a vehicle is going to defend itself with whatever it has in an assault and this thing is packing at least 4x the firepower of a razorback.

Now if you actually wanted to show how the loss of a logistic vehicle effects a force within the confines of the epic ruleset we could think outside the box and say that thunderhawk transports generate twice the number of victory points when destroyed. Eg it cost 250 but destroyed your opponent gets 500, then you might see commanders a little more unwilling to risk their log asserts, which is funnily enough just like the real world. Even more drastic would be to impose the granting of a free blitzkrieg victory condition to the enemy if the marines loose all the THT as basically this would simulate the loss in logistic capability suffered. Something this drastic would surely play on a commanders mind.

Anyhow food for thought but I guess I've missed the boat on this discussion.


Last edited by ortron on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:46 pm 
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If the Thunderhawk Transporter needs a special rule then this one:
No Ground Attack allowed.
No Air Assault allowed.
Is forced to take off at the end of the turn it landed.

Btw this could be the rule for a new unit cathegory: Transport-Aircraft

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:51 pm 
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My rules proposalpretty much reflects that. The entire gaming table is a hot landing zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:37 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
It's due to the background Forge World have written for the THT, it's not meant to be used that way. To give you some quotes from the THT entry in IA2 2nd edition: the THT is a 'logistical support variant'....'transporters fly non-stop missions ferrying vehicles and supplies to the Space Marines on the ground.' And 'When entering a war zone, it is armed with heavy bolters for self defence, but it is not expected to engage the enemy.' It's focus is clearly meant to be transport and it not used offensively (as a bomber or to initiate air assaults when empty). If all 4 twin heavy bolters on each were represented a formation of 3 THT would have 12 x AP4+ shots and 12 x AA5+ shots (the average of 4 hits being enough to kill a Thunderhawk on average!). These stats would make them much too good at being a bomber, particularly with 4+ FF too (3 hits on average). A straight translation of stats wouldn't fit the background for the unit, so though not ideal the weapon stats are reduced.


I can definitely get behind that reasoning. Plus limiting ground assault options like BlackLegion proposes gives the Landing Craft a reason to stay viable in the list.

I think Dembski-Bowden does a good job of depicting a THT in action in "Soul Hunter" where its rugged and useful in a combat drop (flinging a land raider straight into combat against a warhound titan), but maneuvers like a lead pig and is subject to serious airframe stresses when trying to fly evasively.

Remember, its more akin to a low orbit-capable Chinook helicopter, than an AC-130 gunship. Transport capacity and defensive guns are enough, IMO. I think it shouldn't just be a replacement for a Landing Craft, but should offer a distinct set of tactical considerations. Having it "drop and pop" could encourage using it to bring in multiple deployments from reserves in a game instead of arriving and staying to support an assault.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:26 pm 
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If you mean keeping multiple formations in reserve and bring them in in waves, I don't believe the rules allow that - the reserves must start in their transports

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Thunderhawk Transporter could be an upgrade for a formation. Something of a one-shot trick. The THTs bring the formation on the table, lift off at the end of the turn never to come back again. Would also decrease their cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:24 pm 
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would also require expendable as well, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:23 am 
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I'll give it a run at the stats provided, however I think there will always be a disagreement over this whilst it maintains neutered stats.

True its not a thunderhawk "gunship" and its not an "Landing Craft" which are probably the main two aerial assault craft of the SM. Similarly though its not a soft skinned modern day aircraft or helicopter. Its closer to a flying tank, with more guns than most tanks, an operated by the imperium's most aggressive fighting force. If SM are happy to race into battle in a tin can rhino, I'm sure they'll air assault with one of these if the situation is right. Why does it need to have a role and feel distinctly different role to the standard Thawk and landing craft? Remember to that not everyone out there has stacks of each type of model so can choose to take their landing craft if their transporters are now useless for delivering troops and vehicles into the fight.

Sorry, not trying to be a troll on this topic, I just don't really get where this perception of it being a soft, logistic only vehicle comes from. The fluff etc I've read doesn't suggest its any worse off than either of the other two SM aircraft, just different weapons and transport capacity.


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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:47 pm 
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I am a fan of removing the offensive weaponry stats, I was the one that suggested that in the first place after all. However nerfing the FF is weaksauce I feel. Actually enough that I doubt I'd take the transporter vs just fielding a Landing Craft. I'm with Orton when he says it's a flying megatank. I think the balancing act should be that they cannot capture objectives. It's a super flying tank with the ability to put out a bunch of pain when assaulting a hot LZ. What it can't do on it's own is tak and hold territory. That I feel would prevent the beardiness we're trying to avoid.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter stats/points
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:17 pm 
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At FF4+ a formation of 3 THT would score 3 hits on average, better than a Landing Craft's 2.66, while most importantly also having 2 more DC for outnumbering and soaking up damage. They'd get used for air assaulting a lot when empty, which doesn't seem right. They would have to cost rather more than present too.


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