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Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion

 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:11 am 
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I should have some Sanguinary Guard proxies painted within the next couple of weeks.... will try to run a batrep with them!

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:40 pm 
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I still don't like the SG :) the 3+ save is nothing against MW!


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:18 am 
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pati wrote:
I still don't like the SG :) the 3+ save is nothing against MW!

Correct! :D Technically no unit except 4+RA deals MW, so make sure you hit things that don't carry a MW weapon ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:59 am 
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Yeah, it's the same weakness that they have in 40k. The epitome of a glass hammer unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:25 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
pati wrote:
I still don't like the SG :) the 3+ save is nothing against MW!

Correct! :D Technically no unit except 4+RA deals MW, so make sure you hit things that don't carry a MW weapon ;)


True, but Orbital Bombardement, Quake cannon, tyranid and other Barrage MW weapons are still a threat ;)

It's enough to keep a (possibly BTS) expensive unit on the shelf, unless playing with friends!


Let the playtests begin! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:13 pm 
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New batrep up - http://xenocidalmaniac.wordpress.com/

Blood Angels Playtesting Thoughts:

Eight-stand Assault Marine Squads – in the past, I have stated that this unit is useless or close to it. I stand corrected. They can be useful under certain circumstances. For coming in via Thunderhawk and mopping up isolated small units and grabbing backfield objectives, they can be useful. However, a Thunderhawk is absolutely required for this unit to be effective, making it a pretty hefty investment at 575 points. I’m not sure it’s 575 points useful.

Baal Predators – While I had success with this unit the first time I ran it, I am becoming less and less impressed the more I use it. I absolutely can’t see what justifies a 300 point price tag for these. The problem is that they are only useful against infantry, but most infantry stays cooped up inside of their transports, and Blood Angels don’t have a lot of tools for cracking those transports. So, most of the time, the Baals end up firing on armor, a task for which they are ill-suited. This unit should be 250 points maximum in my opinion, particularly in the context of the Blood Angel list.

The list as a whole still feels woefully under-powered to me, especially against armor, in spite of the fact that I took Stormravens and more Land Raiders. The Stormravens are simply too fragile to start on the table with, however, because all of the other Blood Angel units are so expensive, the 200 points that it costs to planetfall them is too much. I was already very light on activations for this match even without burning another 200 on a spacecraft. I almost feel as though Stormravens should be 50 points apiece, especially in light of the AT missile nerf.

675 points is an absurd cost for my command squad consisting of six stands of tactical marines, three Stormravens, and a Hunter. Just too much. I never want to take that unit again.

The Devastator squad with two Land Raiders performed decently and I will take that unit again. However, it’s a unit that any Space Marine list can take.

Due to the lack of AT weaponry in the Blood Angel list, the BTS objective is effectively off the table in every game. There was simply no way I could have destroyed that Stompa Mob through shooting, and I would have had to dedicate at least three or four units to assaulting it in order to win decisively and break it (which still would not have earned me the BTS). The Death Company with Furioso dreadnoughts, while powerful, just doesn’t pack the punch it needs to reliably break units like this. As a result, the Blood Angels enter nearly every game with a one-objective handicap.

Even being gifted with the Ork commander’s poor decisions – the Landa strafing run and then the poor placement of the Big Warband (giving me TSNP objective), I only managed a tie. Had the game gone to turn four, I am nearly certain I would have lost.

I should also note that I was running the Furioso Dreadnoughts at a 50 point cost.

I love the Blood Angels, but I can’t help but feel that justice is not being done for this venerable chapter with the army list as it stands.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:25 pm 
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I think that the main issue is that everything is too expensive. I was running the Dreadnoughts at 50 points because I thought that they had been changed in this draft, but I guess not. So I was actually running a 3050 point list and still the army underperformed.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:28 pm 
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I don't see why the BA would have more difficulty with a BTS like a Supa Stompa+stompa formation than normal marines, fair enough they don't have titans but using Codex SM warhounds are usually tasked with anti-AA duties rather than going at formations like that.

I can't see why standard effective SM tactics of removing smaller formations before prepping with crossfires and assaulting the supa stompa with lots of support (both aided by increased movement of BA vehicles) wouldn't work just as well, make sure supa stompa takes as many hits as possible to try and ensure at least it dies then hackdown the non fearless survivors

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:29 pm 
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Blood Angels do not have access to Pred Annihilators or Land Raider formations or titans is the reason they have problems with BTS.

With what units would I have set up crossfires on the stompa unit? I had a total of seven activations. I can't threaten objectives, guard my own, and dedicate four formations to killing a single unit all at the same time. Not to mention I didn't even have any AT with which to hurt it.

EDIT: I'd also ask that only people who have been following the development of this list contribute comments - it's very frustrating when I keep having to answer the same questions from people who know little about the list or have not participated in the discussion to this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 6:44 pm 
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My opinion about the Battrep (About some questions asked- just read this and the previous topic, so much thing discussed before -without no real solution.):

"Nice to read a Battrep, about the so-much discussed Blood Angels. I played a lot with them (yeah, still no battreps), and had the same feeling every single time, that the list is underpowered badly. not just because of it's poor AT capabilities (2x SS Stromraven rockets for 75p?), but because of the expensive units!

375p for 8 infantry units (aka Assault Marines) without transport -next to the cheaper, Character lead Raptors for example- is a bad choice. Take Termies instead! Altough I usually use Assault Marines, because of the fluff.. :)
-Solutions? Lower their price or give them special transports (yeah, I know, no drop pods :D )!

Baal Predators are even worse. They have FF 4+, for +25p, next to the FF 3+ Annihilators! Still discussed previously, many times before, so there's a good chance, that their problem will be solved, with their point cost reduction to 62,5p (or something like that..)

Always take Termies :) they are a disguisting unit, they should be included in every SM army! If you don't like them, take two formations of them instead! :D

The BA army lacks the flexible combinations of a Codex Marine list, the cheap units (Scouts only, Land Speeders only..), and their AT capabilities are poor. Just try to imagine what if the opponent is for example a mechanized Eldar army, and everything comes in skimming Armoured Vehicles.. Shit happens.

100% percent agree with the BTS handicap, a very good point!

I think this battrep shows why the BA list needs a significant point reduction, and a boost in AT capabilities -I personally don't like the nerfing of the Stormraven! just try to imagine what could happen, if the opponent is AMTL or Minervan IG, in a tournament game, when you need an all-rounder army.. BA is very bad at non-specialized (=tournament) games, when you're not aware of your possible opponent -at least you can play with a full scout+Stormraven army, but why?"


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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:18 pm 
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OK i'm going to go out into crazy land here for a bit and see about flipping the script here. What's THE defining characteristic for the Blood Angels since Angels of Death back in 3rd edition?

DEEP STRIKE

That's absolutely their shtick. PERIOD.

Taking a look at costs and unit inclusion if fine and dandy (and something I support) but I feel there's a thematic problem with this list in general. It simply doesn't feel at all like the Blood Angels. Or to put it another ways, Blood Angels is not Codex Marines with oversized Assault formations and Baal Predators.

What if, and let's just drop preconceptions and look at this with fresh eyes, what if the Blood Angels worked more like the Guard Elysian list with Assault marines (via direct unit or via even an upgrade) had Teleport? This is the PREEMINENT imperial deep strike high intensity assault force, allow them to play that up. These are literally marines that want to drink your blood and are insane enough to drop out of high flying aircraft performing HALO operations straight into the face of the enemy, even when it's not even prudent to do that.

Yes this is already reflected in the ground assault rules with the 15cm charge units with Jump Packs can do but we're talking about that being something ALL factions already can do rules wise. We're talking about marines that have taken that to and even crazier extreme jumping out from extreme heights to shock assault the enemy.

We balance this aggressiveness by preventing them from taking titans and they have to pay a premium to take on heavier armor formations a they've either have to march them across the board OR pay the thawk surcharge to get them stuck in as those Assault Marines are not going to survive without support.

So wild idea here but lets really think about that before we dismiss this out of hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:27 pm 
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As you and I discussed via chat, Jimmy, I LOVE this idea. LOVE it. I would take teleporting 8-stand assault formations all day long. And not even necessarily because it would be effective, but because it would be FUN. And you're absolutely right - as I mentioned to you privately, at the moment, I feel like I am simply playing a gimped version of the codex list with large assault squads. Adding teleporting assault formations would make me feel like a Blood Angel!

That unit I had in my last batrep mopping up Blitz Brigades? Well, if I had two or even three of those arriving by teleport, WOW! What fun. Then the Thunderhawks could be used to drop Devastators and / or tacticals, making it a true in your face assault list.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Blood Angels do not have access to Pred Annihilators or Land Raider formations or titans is the reason they have problems with BTS.

With what units would I have set up crossfires on the stompa unit? I had a total of seven activations. I can't threaten objectives, guard my own, and dedicate four formations to killing a single unit all at the same time. Not to mention I didn't even have any AT with which to hurt it.

EDIT: I'd also ask that only people who have been following the development of this list contribute comments - it's very frustrating when I keep having to answer the same questions from people who know little about the list or have not participated in the discussion to this point.

Only having 7 formations is your own choice, standard practice if you are using a 600+pt BTS is to take lots of small formations to balance out the activations (like your opponent did with his BTS) whereas you chose expensive bulked out formations. If you are using a 600+ pt formation then the plan and armylist needs to be based around using that big formation too its strengths and mitigating its weaknesses.

Land speeders,typhoons, devs, razorbacks are all excellent (and cheap) crossfire units allowing a decent number of activations and FF support in taking down a big BTS.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:31 pm 
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Steve, honestly, there is a long history here and a reason why I took the formations that I did which are covered in prior discussions. I'm not new to Epic and I already understand all of the comments you are making about how to play Epic in general. However, you're jumping in and adding your comments without any context.

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 Post subject: Re: Blood Angels v2.2 DRAFT ONLY for discussion
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Please bear in mind I'm only running on theory hammer but I'm pretty good at

My suggestion, looking at the list, would be to keep the raven at 2-shots but drop it to 50pts. This gives a solid skimmer transport, similar in aspect to a wave serpent, similar relative strengths. Especially since Marines are pre-priced to have transports.

Drop the point cost on the Baal pred's to 250 for the unit and bump their firefight to 3+. Reasoning being that the current Destructor has a FF of 3+ and can add anti-infantry for an extra turn of the game (due to range). Additional units, if added per the heavy support option I would say 50pts per model instead of 75. Doesn't make them amazing but at least shifts them into the useful category.

Allow units of Annihilators just like the SM books does. Make them 275 base to make up for the additional speed/manueverability.

Drop the point cost of dreads to 50pts. Their abilities aren't worth costing more than standard marine dreads.

Also, not sure how far you are willing to go but here is a suggestion based on how assault marines in general have started to be depicted the last few editions in 40k:

Assault Marines w/out Jump Packs. Similar numbers to standard assault marines (i.e. 6 stands) w/the same CC/FF as regular assault marines. Landraider or Drop Pods as transports only (to keep the unit from being spammed). Still 250 base or maybe 225?

Just a thought since it's pretty common in the fluff and function of Assault Marines to ground pound and it'd be even more likely in a BA list.

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