In terms of the playtests we did the land speeders operated just like any other land speeder formation except they had a 30cm AA bubble. One of the defining characteristics of the Raven guard in the fluff is a heavy reliance on scouting formations. They want to sabotage enemy instillation (very hard to represent in epic), set up ambushes and carry out hit and run attacks. They generally don't like long drawn out engagements. The suggestions E&C and I made were to push the list more in this direction and less towards planetfall.

Tempests already don't have the scout special rule but don't really need it, as the rest of the formation has it. You are very unlikely to use a formation of 5 tempests because of the points cost. If the typhoons loose scout it would have a minimal impact for the same reason.

I disagree about Typhoons. I use all-Typhoon Land Speeder formations. It's one of my favorite fire support formations for SMs. It's more dynamic than, say, Devs + Razorbacks or Preds + upgrades for the same price.

Can't say as I'd take 5 Typhoons; 325pts for 5 LV's is a bit much for me.

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They're consistently high performers for me. Pop up attacks help defense. High to-hit values allow double moves with less impact to their shooting. Enough range that they can use their Scout ZoC to hinder one formation while shooting at another. 35cm move and Skimmer so they can run down broken formations or flanking elements. The move/range/popup/scout combo is really effective for late turn objective grabs as well.

They're not as tough as the other SM fire support in a similar price range, but like I said, much more dynamic.

Back onto scouts I really like the idea of making some more specialized scout units to make the list a bit more distinct.

What do you about.

Snipers: Infantry 15cm Sv:5+ CC:5+ FF:4+; Scout, 30cm AP 5+ Sniper. 200 points.

OR

Infantry 15cm Sv5+ CC5+ FF5+ Scout, 30cm AP5+ and firefight Sniper. 200 points.

I'd keep the normal space marines scouts as is.

Have been thinking about testing a planetfall based list. I have a few questions:

Can a formation that uses drop pods also take the Caestus upgrade or does the note in the drop pod upgrade not allow this (i.e cannot include units unable to go in drop pods)? If so this should be made clearer.

Do you intend to allow Russian dolling with Caestusi and Thunderhawks to be allowed in the list?

How wedded to idea of planetfalling land speeders are you? I'm not sure it really reflects the fluff, I'm not sure its needed as they are movement 35cm and can scout, and it causes me much concern about the mechanism and how it combines with scout z.o.c. Are you very opposed to removing it?

Also Neal could you please let me know which of our ideas you are looking at adopting in the list and which in your opinion need more discussion and testing. Cheers mate.

No. You can't take both pods and transport. I'll think on the wording.


No. The spacecraft allotment for troops and vehicles applies as normal.


I'd like them to have a deepstrike option if at all possible but I can cut it if evidence is that it just won't work. Feel free to test a Teleport/50point alternate.


1) Split scout formation into scout-sniper and commando-assault formations.
2) Cut armor (no Preds or Whirlwinds).
3) Pricing change to Tempest (and Caestus).
4) Add the "30cm move" deployment rule, a la White Scars.

I do want to try to keep a Tac/Assault formation as well. I'm willing to trim down some of the options for them.

I'll try to get a revised list worked up.

Caestus: you could write that the upgrade replaces the normal transport rule for space marines.

Landspeeder: How about allowing them to be transported in TH's? Or rewriting the rule to make it more like the drop pod rule? IIRC don't formations have to remain within 5cm of the drop pod on the initial drop.

What about bikes?

I agree I'd really like to keep the tac/foot assault split as well. I would just like to see the foot assault as a Powered Armoured Scout formation. But am reasonably happy either way. In my games they rarely used the scout ability as E&C put his objective in areas where I was unlikely to garrison. I'd expect this to be the no against this list. Also the sheer number of scouting formations in the list make it very hard to garrison all the formations.

I also have always really liked the idea of specialized scout formations. Would you like to propose some scout stats for me to playtest?

I think it will be okay as-is. The Caestus upgrade is written so you have to take exactly enough to transport the formation. That doesn't leave any "plus transport" options. No Rhinos or Razorbacks.


What would be the reason for the Thawk option? You couldn't put a full formation in a Thawk (assuming the normal LV = 2 units). If you're adding fire support to a foot infantry formation, a Dreadnought is a better choice than a Speeder. An Assault + 2 Speeder formation could work, but I don't know that's enough to justify rewriting a basic unit's datafax.

I don't understand your point on the planetfall. The Planetfall rules are like the drop pod rules. There are some minor differences, but both end up with all the forces within 15cm of the plotted LZ (minus scatter) and within formation coherency.


Whoops. I missed that. Cut, per your suggestion.


The Commandos are definitely in. I was considering also giving them Infiltrate. They will be restricted to scout-style deployment and formation options - no dreads, Hunters, Razorbacks, can garrison, etc..

Tac Assault would have the same options as Tacs so they could be more of a "line" formation, but without the Scout(/Infiltrate) ability.

The reason I was considering Infiltrate on Commandos was to add utility in situations where the Tac Assault would simple be better. For example, in an air assault, Tac Assault would hit just as hard but be cheaper, so no one would ever take Commandos for that. However, with Infiltrate, they would be a lot more mobile for follow on actions (like Assault Marines or Bikes), making them a viable choice.

The Commandos would need to be about 200 points for 4 (or maybe 175). The apt comparison is Assault Marines - same assault stats and same move for Engage actions, plus Scout, but slower for things like double/support or objective grabs. The formation size difference would also distinguish their battlefield role from a 6-unit line formation of Tac Assault - surgical strikes and cheap activation, versus heavier assault. The Commandos would probably need to be restricted from Drop Pods since that would be cheap enough to do a Pod-barrage.

What do you guys think of that idea? Is it workable or am I heading off into the stratosphere?


I want to go with the FF4+ for Sniper-Scouts.

Scout-Sniper
Infantry, 5+, 5+, 4+
Sniper Rifles, AP5+, Sniper
Scout

Commandos
Infantry, 4+, 3+, 5+
Scout, Infiltrate

Caestus: I was more concerned about drop pods with this. I understood that you can't take rhino's and razorbacks. It doesn't specifically disallow drop pods with the formation.

Landspeeders: The TH is because the deep strike option in 40k represents them being dropped via TH.

Planetfall: It is my understanding (at least how we have played it) that you preplot DZ's before the game. Then you get to move the DZ 15cm before rolling scatter. Then you scatter the DZ in a random direction. This allows you to (if you roll well) drop up to 27cm from the original location. Further if I've got it right drop pods act like any other transport vehicle essentially giving the carried formation a 5cm disembark from the marker (is that right?). It is my understanding however that formations like Landspeeders are moved and scattered individually. Ie. You preplot one spot as normal but you can move each landspeeder 15cm in different directions and then randomly scatter each of them. This is the part I have problems with. But I may not understand the rule properly.

I not convinced about adding infiltrate to the commandos. Will they be able to take caestusi?

I would recommend keeping normal space marine scouts in the list as well. 3 scout options is very cool.

Do you think there is room for both a power armoured scout formation and tactical assaults? I have a sneaking suspicion that the commandos will replace them in most list construction. I can see them only really being used as a cheap drop formation.

Pods/Caestus: Ah. I misunderstood your question. Drop pods are an upgrade in the list, not a "plus transport" deployment option. All units in the formation have to be pod-able to take them. You can't have both Caestus and pods.


No. For pods, the first unit lands on the LZ point after the 15cm move and scatter. All the rest have to be within formation coherency and 15cm of the LZ point/first unit. Within those restrictions you can put the units anywhere you want. So, pods actually end up with LZ plot + 15cm adjustment - scatter like any other Planetfall... then another + 15cm placement.


That's correct. What aspect of that is it that you have problems with? Multiple scatter rolls are actually pretty quick according to playtest results. Overall flexibility is similar to pods (arguably a bit less flexible).

Commando: Yes, they will have a Caestus option, with or without Infiltrate ability.

Scouts: What do you think normal scouts would add to the list? Is there an in-play niche you have in mind?


I'm not sure. That's why I asked. The difference would be price.

As far as us in armies, I actually think it would be the other way around - as long as the Scout ability isn't expressly needed for the army strategy, the cheaper non-Commando Tac Assault would be the first choice. Commandos would be relatively limited - only to specific roles that required their special abilities.

Caestus: It might be worth making this more explicit in the upgrades.

Planetfall: My problem with landspeeders planetfalling is using the ability to spread out as much as possible to hem your opponent into his deployment zone on turn 1. It should take them about 2 turns to fight their way passed your formations making it much more difficult for them to achieve objectives. The combination of moving and scattering individually seems powerful. If there was some way of limiting this I would have less problems with it.

Scouts: I would just like to give people a cheaper scout option. I can see no real reason to leave them out. The R.Guard should have access to every scout option.

Commandos/Tactical Assault: I reckon put both in the list and see how it goes. you should be able to balance the tac assault greater flexibility in upgrade selection with the commandos ability to scout. I'm not sure about giving the commandos infiltrate and access to caestusi.

We did some massed speeder drops in our playtests before this release. Giving them PF definitely warranted a price increase but it didn't feel completely over the top, even with the re-roll. Spreading out too thin to ZoC everything made them an easy clipping target.

It's been awhile since I played the multiple unit in a PF formation, but how is it done again? Place a unit, move it 15cm, scatter, do the same with the next unit? Or pick a point, move it 15cm, and scatter all units from there?

If its the former I can see downgrading it to the latter to prevent huge spreads. But like I said, even plopping 20 speeders I wasn't able to ZoC everything, the scatter helps mitigate this.

Neal, anything thoughts on bumping the Caestus to FF4+ instead of dropping the points?

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Dave: It's place, scatter, repeat. The pre-scatter spread is 15cm from the LZ point, or 30cm diameter. Even with an optimal LZ placement and scatter rerolls, you'd have to be awfully lucky to spread much past that.

I'd rather try the point drop on the Caestus. It seems that cheaper/lighter is more attractive in transports. Otherwise, they start tanking activation count and people shy away from them. Who knows? It might end up being 4+FF as well.

Alright, that's what I thought. Yes, even with the rerolls on 20 speeders it didn't feel like the ZoC bubble was huge or the opponent couldn't do anything about it where they were. From what I remember, the things dropped down, mayhem ensued and a lot of formations on both sides came out broken or destroyed.

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