First off, I am really enjoying the cross pollination of thought in this thread. It's given me a lot to think about regarding the tuning of my list.

I play the SM this way because that's just how I see them. That seems truer to their fluff and it is an amazing thing to behold when it works well...and as MoK pointed out, it can be quite painful and very humbling when it does not.

One of the reasons I take the LC is at least among those that I was playing against regularly, it was tough enough to brave just about any AA. Also, except for the local Ork player, it was not often that I ran into a lot of aircraft, hence the risk associated with placing a lot of eggs in that basket was mitigated.

However, one of the comments did catch my ear/eye regarding the Nightwings. I haven't had a chance to catch up on the Eldar yet, so what is it about them that is so devestating to flying WE's?

@Ginger: I see your point about the rhinos, i.e. I can't just purchase a Razorback, it is a swapout for a rhino. What I was thinking was, if the rhinos are free and you can choose to take them or not, that I could just choose to pay the points for the RB and go. You are saying that rhinos are all on or all off. If they are all on, then you can take RB? Correct?

Again, many thanx on the discussion, it has been good to be sharpened by so much steel.

Cheers,

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

. . . but you could planetfall them in a Thunderhawk, and they make an interesting addition to a planetfalling Landingcraft (with two additional sets of Devastators). . . . .

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

An air tactic that Semaj Nollisor uses is a Thawk each of Devs and Assault Marines.  Land/shoot/support with the Devs, then Air Assault with the Assault Marines.  It's retain-only, with neither formation having BMS and it's not dependent on winning strategy.

Sure, it's ~1200 points plus characters in 2 activations but it will crush pretty much anything short of a Warlord or Great Gargant.  Just the Devs/Thawk will average ~8 hits against infantry or ~3 against armor, plus ~6 from support fire.  Adding in the Assault Marines and a few characters and you're looking at 20+ regular and ~3 MW hits.

If the enemy doesn't have a big target worth spending that much on hitting, you can always split them up.

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Neal

They have "lance" on a set of their 30cm AA5+ attacks... a flight of three Nightwings has 3xAA5+ and 3xAA5+ (lance)... so, that's a lot of firepower to face.

And those attacks would be 4+ on the intercept...

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

On the Rhinos, I understand the purchasing process is to buy the upgrades first and then get as many Rhinos as needed to transport the remaining troops. However, you are required to ensure the entire formation has transport, so its all or nothing.

On the Nightwings, as Chroma says, at 30cm range (so outside the defensive AA from the LC) you now expect to get ~3 hits on average, 1-2 being lance. This is not usually enough to actually kill the LC outright, but then there is the critical . . . and I have seen more than my fair share of Thunderhawks and even LC fall to these beasts. The issue being that with even modest amounts of troops, this represents up to 1000 points up in a spectacular fireball, and usually it also dooms any other formations already engaged (who were expecting to support the now frazzled attack).

However, using planetfall you can avoid all such unpleasantness and even use the LC's activation as an assault in its own right with the transported troops as 'support' (thus gaining several activations that would otherwise be lost through the combined air assault).

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"Play up and play the game"

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

On a related note, I always try to build a little flexibility into any Marine list to allow it to be used in different ways depending upon the opponent being faced; so here against Eldar, being able to planetfall the LC is very important - which means swapping out one of the Tacticals.

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"Play up and play the game"

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

There are downsides to Planetfall your skirting around, the opponent knows what turn your going to strike.
You also must choose drop sites not knowing where the enemy will be.

On the Landing Craft- I once had an LC, Tactical with Rhinos, Razor, Chaplain, Hunter (my BTS) and another Tactical with Supreme Commander. Flew over some Obliterators- one critical hit brought it down.
More than a 1000pts lost, and my BTS, and my SC.

Game over right there, no point continuing. So airborne is a very big gamble, win or lose big.

Rhinos- you replace Rhinos with 1-2 Razors, so you need to have attached 3 Rhinos to the Tacticals first.

. . . which is why I like the whole process, because there are certain internal balances that even it out for both sides. The whole process of bluff and double-bluff on plotting where it will go, and how to control that part of the battlefield, the fact that you have time pressures to deploy and use the formation before the enemy can react effectively, and therefore the planning needed to try to mitigate as many of these risks as possible etc.

However, there is one thing you cannot plan for, merely make allowances  - - - the dice
(And as veterans of UK tournaments will testify, mine often perform spectacularly badly   )

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"Play up and play the game"

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Not to steer us away from Air assault tactics and tips, but I also found my Mud Marine list that I had a lot of fun with awhile back. I'm sure you guys could tune it quite a bit, but it was interesting in its extremes.

Anyway, I'd be interested in your comments on the concept...

BATREP

Last night, John and I took a stab at the Mud Marine Challenge. The purpose of our game was to learn and/or refine tactics to better help a foot bound force deal with opponents. So who won wasn’t as important as learning something that would be used to produce wins later on.

For John’s part, this exercise allowed him to continue the refinement of what will be a tournament list, able to take on all comers. We’ve gone through this exercise before where we try different things just to see if new synergies can be discovered.

John’s 2700 pt Imperial Guard List:

1 x Regimental HQ, 1 x Hydra
1 x Mechanized Infantry Co, 1 x Hydra
1 x Leman Russ Co, 1 x Hydra
1 x Baneblade Co, 1 x Hydra
1 x Foot Infantry Co, 1 x Hydra
1 x Vultures

John rolled for Commissars and got enough to give one to each formation.

Honda’s 2700 pt Mud Marine List

1 x Tactical, 1 x Hunter, 1 x Supreme Commander
1 x Tactical, 1 x Hunter, 1 x Captain
1 x Tactical, 1 x Hunter
1 x Tactical
1 x Whirlwind, 1 x Hunter
1 x Whirlwind, 1 x Hunter
1 x Whirlwind, 1 x Hunter

The table had a very healthy mix of hills and woods.

Turn 1

This turn was characterized by general advances on both sides. I used my WW formations to place blast markers on the most urgent threats, which in this turn at least, were the LRCo and the Baneblades.

I positioned the SC-Tactical and a second Tac formation with a Hunter nearby the Baneblades with double moves near the center of the board and one of my objectives, shooting at the formation primarily to place blast markers, though casualties were warmly welcomed, none appeared.

John used the Vultures to wipe out a WW formation in the latter stages (leaving the Hunter), while I took the other pair of Tacs and moved them in the general direction of my other objective. John countered by moving the mechanized infantry company into woods to counter my push on the right.

Turn 2

I really needed to go first and was able to secure that opportunity.

Taking a deep breath, I fired indirectly on the Baneblade formation, placing a blast marker. Next I combined assaulted with the SC-Tac formation and the other Tac into the Baneblades. I got one crit on a Baneblade, which blew up, killed the Hydra and another Baneblade, breaking the formation.

The LRCo failed its activation and elected to continue pressing into my side of the board, controlling one of his objectives. On my next go, I moved one Tac formation over to the entrenched mech infantry and shot, placing a blast marker. Next I assaulted with the other Tac formation, using the supporting fire of the nearby Tac formation to reduce it to 2 x Chimeras and around 6 x infantry stands. The formation broke and I consolidated in the general area around the woods.

John was now faced with a difficult set of decisions. I was deep into his backfield with two very solid infantry formations, his Blitz was within one turns move on my part and I had just blasted one of his maneuver forces.

I used a WW formation to break his Vultures so that they couldn’t  provide a cross fire opportunity on my formations.

Turn 3

So there it was, the 800 lb gorilla. That’s right, I’m talking about the LRCo. Realistically, there wasn’t a whole lot I could do about it, so keeping in mind that it is only one formation, I started rotating my remaining WW formations away from it, but it was still able to advance and wipe out another WW formation, but only contest my Blitz.

I advanced with my two Tac formations deeper into John’s backfield, wiping out the remaining Baneblade. I used a surviving Hunter to control one of John’s objectives on my left, hammered the broken mech infantry company with a WW formations and wiped it out.

This really left John with limited set of options. So he moved the foot infantry company back to his Blitz to protect it. The RHQ stayed to contest the objective on the right, while using auto-cannons to hammer my Tac formations on the right.

The store was closing so we quickly looked at where everything stood. By objectives, we were tied 0-0, though I was ahead on point.

Looking to what might occur in a fourth turn if we could of played it, all things being equal, it looked like the Mud Marines would pull out a 2-1, possibly 3-1 victory. We based this on the fact that John only had the LRCo as a viable healthy unit, his RHQ was beat up pretty well and had around 4-5 BM on it, the smaller foot infantry co would have had to deal with to SM tactical formations and the Vulture squadron that was broken only had two vehicles left.

So very interesting results.

Analysis:

The SM were very effective when utilizing a combined arms approach using the Whirlwind formations to prep the attack. Also combined assaults on the IG formations or positioning a supporting formation to lend fire for a follow assault worked quite well.

Looking closely at the MM list, there really weren’t many gimmicks in the SM arsenal, the most effective being the three WW formations. I took a bunch of Hunters to discourage anything that might fly on the table with extreme prejudice, but also to have some sort of solution for the Vultures that I knew were going to be there. I didn’t want John parking the Vultures in spitting distance of my tactical formations with me being unable to respond in some manner.

You’ll also notice that I didn’t take any tanks. Especially in this game against the IG line up, they would have come up second in any attack and for true value for points expended, the basic tactical formation is pretty hard to beat. As many as you can get your hands on is a good deal. Interestingly, this type of army behavior, though using vastly different mechanics, is also manifest in 40K.

I used terrain to mask as much shooting at my formations on the way into their attacks as much as possible and was very thankful that John hadn’t taken an artillery company. Also, lest anyone think I had this all figured out on my own, John was a very willing participant in the exercise and especially in the end-game was extremely helpful in figuring out best case moves. I’ve noticed in my playing style that I tend to play stronger in the early stages of a game, do Ok in the mid-game, and need to tighten up some of my decision making in the end game.

John is an excellent end-game player and several times has pulled out victories through superior moves, especially when he has a mobility advantage. He is already looking forward to our next engagement with his Saim Hann-Sotec 1.8 list. I on the other hand am extremely anxious about that match up.

Other factors that helped:

I started the game pretty much tied in number of activations and was able to turn that into an activation advantage through the end of the game. I passed all of my activation rolls and only had the use the SC re-roll once. The MM superior command and control were quite telling, even with some blast markers on some of my units.

I did use the “Greatly Outnumberedâ€Â

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

For true 'ground-pounders' TRC did recommend the use of Scouts with 4x Razorbacks, and Devastators with 4x Razorbacks. Both make reasonable all round support formations and the extra numbers obviously add to their resilience. I think I would have swapped one of these in for a Whirlwind formation.

I am also interested in the number of Hunters purchased, which amounted to 450 points. Personally, I would have dropped at least two for a pair of ThunderBolts. This gives an extra activation, and may be used as CAP if absolutely necessary. Their main role should be hunting down broken formations, or taking out key formations (like the Vultures).

The other thing is that Marines must make good use of their speed to set up cross-fire situations, especially on RA targets. Cheap formations like Scouts and Landspeeders are really good for this.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

@Ginger,

Agreed, that the list could definitely be tweaked and I'll look into your recommendations.

I am also interested in the number of Hunters purchased, which amounted to 450 points. Personally, I would have dropped at least two for a pair of ThunderBolts. This gives an extra activation, and may be used as CAP if absolutely necessary. Their main role should be hunting down broken formations, or taking out key formations (like the Vultures).

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Yep; Hena's list does look like a nasty one; a little gamey for my personal liking (min-maxing all those Razorbacks) but - hey - i do it to in individual formations.  A shame that it is, perhaps, a little too typically tourney for my liking but i would LIKE to try winning a few games at one point! (nor do i have the razorbacks to go round)

SO; finally i'm going to present you with four lists; you all know i'm going to be using marines and there's no way i'll let on which list i'm using so this is, in fact, a piece of friendly psyhological warfare!
Each list comes with it's own nuances, an for those not coming to the tourney (or indeed those who ARE and recognise i need all the help i can get!) feel free to comment on one or all of the lists as you feel free.

Task Force: “Insert 'Ride of The Valkyries'Hereâ€Â