I would take them out as upgrades to assault marine formations. They don't really fit in the unit i think.

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I played 12 games with the 2.x Blood Angels. Mostly spent floundering around trying to learn the game with a fluffy list that could bring almost no Anti Tank, never mind Anti Titan.

I thought the old Frenzied/RedThirst rule was nice and balanced itself out. It helped you once or twice a game get into engage and screwed you once or twice a game when you didn't want to engage. It was usually pretty obvious when you could or couldn't, so not so fiddly. And the opponent loves to remind you when you're going to get the minus. Had a nice attack dog on a chain quality.

The current Red thirst rule has no upside...

No strong feelings on the Sanguinary Guard either way. Didn't take the old ones... Sounds cool and not OP enough for the opponent to roll his eyes.

I agree with the sentiments that Blood Angels (at least the ones still in red armor) are for the most part codex marines that use more assault marines, not that each one is some kind of super assault marine. To that end, I think both sides remembering that blood angel assault marines are now 4+CC +1EA vs regular assault marines being 3+CC is extra fiddly for too much divergence. I think adding two stands is enough.

I don't even know what a Storm Talon is... Will be very sad to lose the marauders. Where else am I supposed to get a template now? A Spaceship? You took the whirlwinds out at the same time. They're codex, and they own them. No reason to take them out. Same with the regular predators... They weren't great AT but they were kind of the only AT. Baal predators kind of make the vindicators obsolete.

The +5cm engage bonus for the engines is very nice. A tasteful tweak to the codex list vs. the across the board +5cm per move. Well done!

What is superior tactics?

Death Company can hold objectives now? Is that why the cost went up? Seems to go against the fluff... They're the one piece of the army that really is the slobbering berzerkers. They're not really into that. I'd rather have the points back. At least the opponent had the consolation that they didn't take his blitz too when they jumped in and murdered whatever was back there.

Here's what I had settled on for the old list after 12 games. The baal predator points were situational. Storm Ravens were off the table as too experimental.

Crak's Blood Angels, 3000 POINTS
Blood Angels (V2.4 TCMD forum)
==================================================

DEATH COMPANY [350]
Chaplain, 4 Assault Death Company Units, Furioso Dreadnought

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [375]
6 Tacticals, Supreme Commander

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [350]
6 Tacticals, Blood Angels Hunter

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [350]
6 Tacticals, Blood Angels Hunter

ASSAULT DETACHMENT [250]
4 Assault Units, 2 Assault Units

DEVASTATOR DETACHMENT [250]
4 Devastators

TERMINATOR DETACHMENT [350]
4 Terminators

PREDATORS [275]
4 Baal Predator

THUNDERHAWK [200]

MARAUDER BOMBERS [250]
2 Mauraders

Here's the closest thing in the new list. More points, worse air, worse red thirst, and the suicide marines are the BTS.

Incompertus, 3050 POINTS
Blood Angels (V3.0 TCMD forum)
==================================================

DEATH COMPANY [400]
4 Death Company Units plus Transport, Chaplain, Jump Packs, Death Company Dreadnought

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [375]
6 Blood Angels Tacticals plus Transport, Supreme Commander

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [350]
6 Blood Angels Tacticals plus Transport, Hunter

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [350]
6 Blood Angels Tacticals plus Transport, Hunter

ASSAULT DETACHMENT [300]
6 Blood Angels Assault Marine Unit

DEVASTATOR DETACHMENT [250]
4 Devastator Units plus Transport

TERMINATOR DETACHMENT [350]
4 Terminators

PREDATORS [275]
4 Baal Predator

THUNDERHAWK [200]
1 Thunderhawk Gunship

STORM TALONS [200]
2 Storm Talons

Any way you can make the 2.4 list available as well? I'm not a big fan of this list at all right now. I will explain later.

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To be fair your standard list is pretty different from most marine list i played with or against. Marauders are almost never used at 3K in my experience and storm talons feels way more approriate for marine armies.

If you want avoid the DC to be the bts, give the sup com tacticals a hunter and have them guard your blitz (again thats what most guys i've met in tournaments does).

And armyforge should always have the latest edition of a list no?

I think this list is a great improvment over the last edition.

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OK, back into Epic after many years of not really playing, but I've been doing Blood Angles for years (haven't played 40k for 10 years, really don't like where GW took the game). I got motivated to finish my BA Epic force recently and will be playing again (in fact tomorrow). There are two major changes that I don't agree with right off the top:

No Whirlwinds
No Thunderbolts

I really don't care where GW is taking the game. Whirlwinds and Thunderbolts have been part of the marine universe for years. The Blood Angles are a codex force, they should have access to both. I'll be sticking with the 2.4 list if this change becomes official. Other than that I really don't have any problems with the 3.0 list. A lot of things need to be played to flesh out the changes before I can really comment on them.

One other comment, the 2.4 list wasn't that bad. It included Death Company (not an add as noted in the first post) and did not allow titans (not a subtract as noted in the first post). The biggest problem I had with the 2.4 list was the Sanguinary Guard. They just don't need to be represented at this level. Everything else wan't really that bad.

What does every new champion feel the need to blow the list up and start over? That being said, thanks for stepping up and moving the list forward. I hope to be able t help with playlets and such.

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Mike

That should be ok, no?

Yes it should. Nice write up crak. I agree with most of your points. Still trying to digest the new list before I comment more.

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I've tried to abstract it into making assault marines more potent



Assault marines in general are pretty poor, BA should have some of the best around, giving them an extra attack, an established and common special rule is hardly fiddly....



your google-fu is weak young Padawan



A spaceship is a good start, yes.... but seriously if you want to use all those codex toys, then maybe the codex list is a better choice? you have storm ravens for AT now, they have significantly better firepower than Pred annihilators, plus are skimmers, have better armour etc... Baal Predators were in the old list too, not sure what that comment is meant to mean in the context of the new list? vindicators are unit upgrades now, Baal Preds aren't so they don't really step on each others toes anyway?



Jimmy can take credit for that suggestion



another name for the marine transport rule, I'll re-word it



if ork madboyz can hold objectives, no reason death company can't, especially as they are a mandatory choice, the cost increase was because they are a bit cheap as they are, with a built-in chaplain, fearless and inv save coupled with the usual marine goodness



Sorry you can't make a list you're satisfied with, to be fair you can make a very similar list to your first one using the codex list, swap a terminator formation in for the death company (you could even proxy your death company models as such) and the Baal Preds for annihilators and you're almost there.....



Frankly no, the repository is available here if you want to, you could easily fork it off into your own branch on your own host and use it there, plenty of others on this site have done that, but I'm not going to have multiple versions available on armyforge, that will encourage needless branching and confusion

the old list is available here for reference, I'm not deleting it and outside of tournaments you can basically do whatever you want and use whichever list takes your fancy anyway



I can consider adding the whirlwinds back in if they are really such a loss to the list, but I'm not budging on storm talons, they've been around in the fluff for ~5 years now and are the de-facto standard marine aircraft

there is absolutely nothing preventing you from proxying your existing thunderbolt models as storm talons (and indeed this has been happening a lot in the local scene lately)



The 2.4 list was pretty overpowered, it had basically everything the codex astartes list did, plus lots of extra stuff, including all the options to upgrade formations with bikes, preds, assault marines and everything else, if nothing else it didn't fit the remit of 'providing new playstyles and variant tactics' that the variety of lists are meant to, it could mostly do everything the codex list could, AND had the nifty BA toys to use too

you may have misunderstood the OP, I wasn't talking about what had been added or removed from the v2.4 list but rather what has been added/removed versus the codex list



I don't, I've developed lists from scratch and some that are established, this was not an established list, it needed significant changes before it could be pushed to developmental, there is no way the ERC would consider it as it was I'm afraid.... it's also not hugely divergent from the older list, the basic structure is the same, it just has a couple of alterations in points and options

I'm not dismissing these concerns out of hand btw, if you think there is a problem then get some models on the table or vassal or something and show me why, meet me halfway here

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Then is the 4+CC a typo over the old 3+CC? Or a mitigation of the EA? If that's red thirst then everybody has the downside but only one unit has the upside (and the downside).



Oh God, that's fugly. I think the only thing it has over a Thunderhawk at the same points is CAP and an extra AT shot at short range when full strength (which they wouldn't use on CAP anyway). The Thunderhawks, are waaay more survivable, keep all of their AP/AA shots after being hit, and can bring air assaults. If the Storm Talon is going to sit on CAP it's more expensive than the old fighter for the same effect.


Yes, I just realized that the Storm Ravens are toned down quite a bit over the old ones that were an eye roll from the start. Thank you. Looking forward to trying them.

Sorry for being unclear. I was agreeing with you about vindicators and saying they won't be missed. I'd never considered taking the whole formation and if cover's a big problem Baal Preds can ignore cover anyway.


The reason could be they haven't ever scored objectives in 40k.


I guess. But that's a lame last resort. Baal Preds, Death Company are so cool and I thought they worked like they should. As a side note, but coloring all my thinking, it's a challenge trying to figure out how to play space marine lists using space marines. Looks like the standard list is to take everything except space marines.



Please. Spacecraft are a totally different kind of list and only one shot. Would prefer Marauders back too because I did paint the damned things (It's ok I'll start some IG, but really).



Agreed that parts of it were over the top, but I wasn't really taking those. Losing titans is pretty significant tactic change. I'm glad the Storm Ravens are toned down now. I'll be giving the new ones a shot asap. Might solve a few of my problems while still being fair and fluffy.


Yes, playing tomorrow.

Played this list against Lou's Biel Tan Eldar today:


Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Blood Angels (V3.0 TCMD forum)
==================================================

DEATH COMPANY [400]
4 Death Company Units plus Transport, Chaplain, Jump Packs, Death Company Dreadnought

ASSAULT DETACHMENT [300]
6 Blood Angels Assault Marine Unit

TERMINATOR DETACHMENT [350]
4 Terminators

PREDATORS [275]
4 Baal Predator

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [450]
6 Blood Angels Tacticals plus Transport, Supreme Commander, Hunter

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [300]
6 Blood Angels Tacticals plus Transport, Razorback (Lascannon)

TACTICAL DETACHMENT [275]
6 Blood Angels Tacticals plus Transport

DEVASTATOR DETACHMENT [250]
4 Devastator Units plus Transport

THUNDERHAWK [200]
1 Thunderhawk Gunship

THUNDERHAWK [200]
1 Thunderhawk Gunship

Major minuses over old list:
I can't afford the second hunter anymore
I lost my templates.

Plusses over the old list:
Assault marines have extra attacks at worse to hit.
Second Thunderhawk replaces bombers... Not really a plus.


Lou had one objective Garrisoned with scout snipers. Knew I had no templates so built a porcupine of badass AA, superheavy tanks, regular tanks, and aome kind of infantry on top of his blitz and had three giant formations ready to come through portals.

I had the Thawks filled with Death Company and Assault Marines.

1st Turn
One set of tacticals double into terrain near his garrisoned overwatch scouts. And they exchange fire to no effect.

He puts part of the porcupine on overwatch.

I bring up the baal predators on the other side of his scouts in the city. Ignoring cover works great and they break. Left side of the map is cleared out and held by fresh tacs and preds.

He brings in three bombers that drop hell on my Supreme commander sit on the blitz force, killing him and half the BTS. The hunter missed the AA and died.

I bring in one Thawk to put four AA shots on the bombers. I really don't want them coming back. One hit saved.

I bring up the right wing tacticals to sit on the portal in the other city. I know a bunch of formations are coming out and want to engage as they do.

Lou brings out a formation with his supreme commander. It's big but not his biggest. He has all kinds of different specialists mixed so some mean shit is in the front CCing and. They break my tacticals who fall back.

This big formation is on the objective and had a bite taken out of it. At this point he was putting most of his porcupine on overwatch so I wanted to wipe out that formation and SC before more came in. Sent in death company in an air assault and they won, killing the SC in the process. But they lost the dread and the chaplain. Whatever came out next was going to crush them. Probably should have retained and marched the devastators to help?

His BTS came out next. Giant eldar infantry wraithlord wraithguard support platform formation. Wiped out the death company and their Thawk for losing.

Now he has this massive thing on the objective. Would've been nice to pit a template on it.

I probably marahalled my BTS here. To wait for his other portal teleport.

His other massive formation came in after the preds and between doubling and city terrain blocking only put one saved hit on them. Perfect, going to be able to set up a very nice assault next turn. I probably shoot them with the overwatch devastators too to no effect. No big deal they're right there to assault too next turn.

2nd turn
He pops an Avatar near his BTS but very close to the other massive formation too. I put the terminators on the other side of his BTS out od avatar cc reach.

The plan is to move the tanks to his BTS and mess them up in cover and maybe even crossfire. Then retain and engage with the terminators in CC.

I fail initiative and am fucked.

He engages the terminators in FF with the BTS and avatar. Kills three and I kill a stand of his guardians or something. But I catch a break and roll 6 vs 2 on the resolution. So we both break. But that could've been worse for sure.

He retains and moves his other massive formation into CC with the 6+ baal predators. Totally negates their good FF and wipes them all out.

I double the left tacticals over to where the preds used to be and fire to no effect. I try to retain with the devastators to engage the formation in a way that those tacticals could support before his porcupine starts to fan out and march forward. In the old list this would've been -1 for retain and +1 for frenzy and therefore automatic. In the new list, there's no upside and they roll a one and fail.

He brings the bombers in again despite the blast markers and they break my BTS leaving only three broken stands of marines on the blitz.

The only hammer I have left is the thawk full of assault marines. I can either go after the left massive formation supported by full tacticals and devastators or the right massive broken BTS formation. In hindsight I think the left was a better bet but there was no objective there. And the right was still on top of one and threatening to unbreak and shift to cover two. I figured the double losses from being broken might completely wipe them out too. Thought I could intermingle a superheavy tank too and break it.

So I went for the broken one. Found a nice seam that managed to intermingle the tank (but whoops it could've counterchargd in so I didn't), avoid the avatar, take only one AA shot (oh, that thing has 2xAA4+? Took a marker) Rolled slightly better than average (8 hits on 14 4+dice). He failed a lot of saves. Rolled a lot of 6s though and I lost three stands of assault marines and took a hit on the Thawk. It ended up I was up two on the assault roll but that doesn't help when it's my turn to roll 2 and he rolls 6. Marines broken. Thinderhawk lost. No bonus kills on the eldar because they won.

I only had two real formations left... One tactical and one devastator. The rest were dribs and drabs. Lost my personal morale too so we packed it up.

thanks for the report, seems like losing strategy roll/failing the initiative roll for the terminators really put the final nails in the coffin.....

Firstly I'm not about to lecture on tactics or anything here, my group and I play marines a certain way, you clearly take a different approach, I'm not trying to disparage or anything, by all means, you do you, but a few things kinda stuck out for me and I'll point them out here in a 'take it or leave it' manner

- First point, a strike cruiser would have nicely broken up that 'porcupine' sat on his blitz, couple the twin pie-plates of doom with devs in a pod pulling the old 'retain and sustain' trick, and you could possibly have nobbled a good chunk of his AA from the get-go

- Second point, teleporting is seldom the optimum way to deploy terminators... They often bring in blast markers and 'pre-prep' themselves, then they are at the mercy of the strategy roll, which against high-SR armies like eldar and chaos, is by no means a sure thing, especially as you're quite likely to have BMs and make a nice target to be clipped... You also can't move past screening formations, and if you fail to activate without a re-roll (and sometimes WITH a re-roll...) then you're screwed. Even if your terminators DO teleport in with no BMs, you win the strategy roll, and the terminators then engage and destroy their intended target for no loss; they now have to sit around for the rest of the turn and hope the enemy doesn't drop a horde of angry wraithguard on top of them..... So to quote my colleague Steve54 giving me advice on using termies at my first ever tournament using marines ~5 years ago... "unless the opponent has nightwings, thunderhawk the terminators in"

okay to the meat of the last few posts, I'm avoiding quoting because I don't have the time to go through and fiddle with lots of quote tags

Storm Talons vs Thunderhawks vs Thunderbolts

the main strength of the fighters over the thunderhawk is their ability to CAP, they are both much less resilient and can't land or transport, the storm talons have a better save than the tbolt which means they are more likely to survive when getting within 15cm to maximise their AA potential and facing defensive flak. Also don't underestimate 1+ int on aircraft, on turn 1 they will automatically pass a roll to go onto CAP, tbolts can fail and burn your re-roll, they also have a better chance to activate later in the game when all you need to do is put a BM on something to break it and deny an objective.... I think that is worth +25pts (I'd prefer they had 30cm range on the HB shot like EUK ones do, but we're stuck with it now)

Dropping the Assault marines to 4+ CC was indeed to compensate for their extra attack, they needed to be better, just not twice as good I know it's not the best red thirst implementation but for the record I'm in favour of dropping red thirst entirely anyway, I'd assume the commanders would see to it that the craziest dudes would be the ones given the jump packs and chainswords pre-battle

Whirlwinds I'm still on the fence about, not a fan of the marauders, if you want those, the codex list is your friend for now

I'm not bothered about the death company and objectives, objectives can be all kinds of things, destroy the fuel dump/antenna/factory, show up on enemy radar as an enemy presence, assassinate the diplomat, all things that the Death Company can do as well as anyone else

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yeah storm talons are amazeballs and I can't see this list working well without a Strike Cruiser in any of the incarnations I've played of it over the years (30+ games). For friendly play you may want to include the TBrick Saturation Bomber since you really seem attached to bomber style AC.

Looking at your list you're building there, it really seems more suited for the style of play the SoI do. You may find yourself getting along better as they're really about that theme (and have tasty W/E Bombers ). Argol has just taken them over and will be looking to bring them up to date and really could use the batreps. Remember, color of your army does not equate to the list you use (My Iron Hands almost always head out as IF and AoS lists for instance) so don't get tied up about the chapter name on a list.

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or there is always the EpicUK Blood Angels list....

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Thunderhawks are bombers so cannot intercept


This sounds as though the Eldar player has used a single portal multiple times in one turn, possibly the Eldar Super Heavies are Storm Serpents but this is not clear in the battle report.
Also if you know there are assault monsters coming out of the portal in the city why are you giving him an easy target with moving the tacticals to where he wants them to be ?.





Again this sounds as though the Eldar player has re-used the same portal to bring on troops otherwise why wait until turn 2 to assault with the massive formation on the Baal predators when they could have assaulted turn 1 and gone after another formation turn 2.


If a broken formation loses an assault then they are automatically wiped out (apart from any fearless units) there is no "double losses for broken in engagement "rule.
see rule 1.12.8
I think you are mis-understanding 1.13.4 rule.

He had multiple portals. Two were superheavy tanks. This was my first time against eldar.

The Thunderhawk didn't intercept. That was after.

I didn't know how good it was... It was just big and full of stuff.

I'm clearly not the greatest. Yes I was misunderstanding the broken engagement loss. Mostly had a vague idea that they would disappear if I won the engagement. The effect would've been the same. Thank you.