Kyuss proposed stats for the Achilles are fine, and they allow the Achilles to be the same price as other LR, which is great.

Past stats for the Achilles (and the Helios for that matter) look nice on paper, but are just not competitive.

The Crusader does not have any EA, and it doesn't have the Multi-Melta it's supposed to have. At its current price, it definitely should have it.

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@ LoM the crusader should have +2EA, that is an oversight on my part, I will correct it (thanks for the spot!)

@GlynG
I think a bastion is a generic enough name, unless we have specific rules for bastions already, I don't see the need to change it

I get the invulnerable save argument, I just think it's a fluff inclusion because GW have a habit of continually over-selling their stuff, the defiler for example is massively over-gunned and as a result has loads of weapons in epic

I'll nail my colours to the mast here, I haven't played 40k for many many years, since early 2nd edition in fact, I really couldn't care less about the latest fluff and uber tanks designed to vacuum more and more cash out of the pockets of impressionable teenagers, I play epic, I like epic because it puts game balance and playability first, it was designed with vehicular and war engine combat as an inherent part of the system, *unlike* 40k which is a 30-year old ruleset, continually having more and more stuff bolted on

Which is why I *really* have a bee in my bonnet about using 40k as a basis to stat anything up, stuff (and fluff) changes from edition to edition, new things are released which invalidate earlier ideas and stats, looking at the latest rules from living metal (I haven't read them myself, but users on this forum have spoken about them) it wouldn't justify the uber level of protection provided in the epic rules which are based on an earlier living metal rule I believe

Unless someone gives me a compelling game balance argument why the achilles should have the invulnerable save, and cost a staggering 100+ points per tank, I'd really like them tested without it, I'm happy to rename them 'Imperial fists Achilles' if it's going to be that much of an issue, after all they've seen some limited playtesting in other experimental lists and this is hardly a nerf like removing their reinforced armour....

I didn't put them in as upgrades as I feel that they're not really transports, and the other land raider variants were better in that role, I'd rather add the option for formations to add thunderfire cannons if formations want to boost their firepower

Also this list is completely experimental at this stage, it's very early days and I'm sure we'll see lots of changes in time

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okay, made a poll thread here

I'll go with the will of the community, whether or not I agree....

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Good choice

On a totally separate note, I just figured out what might make a half decent Centurion miniature with a bit of cutting ... the Techmarine miniature!

Sorry, bit left of field discussion-wise but still pertinent to the IF

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okay planned list to test out on thursday:

Tacticals - bastion + supcom - 575
scout snipers - 200
scout snipers - 200
Assault Terminators - chaplain + 2 LR crusaders - 525
vindicators - 225
thunderfire cannons - 250
LR Achilles - 325 (testing w/o inv. save, will take inv saves and record how many it would have saved)
Relic Fellblade - 350
Thunderbolts - 175
Thunderbolts - 175

not sure who I'll end up playing, plan depends on that really, this list is mostly to try out as many of the toys as possible for balance, I'm really keen to push the achilles and see how tough they are

terminators and achilles are my assault spearhead, I'm hoping the fellblade will act as a nice distraction and soak up plenty of attention, as well as blowing big holes in stuff.... tacticals act as a blitz guard in bastion, tbolts either CAP against aircraft or shoot up stuff on the ground, scouts camp on OW and snipe characters, maybe garrison in ruins or similar and screen off parts of the table

Next week I'm keen to try out a fortification-heavy list with lots of centurions in bunkers and vindicators, but need to paint some more up first!

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Gimme a chance to scratch one up! I just thought of it

If you remove the claw arm and replace the cog-wrench and pistol hand with whichever weapon you can muster, the shape and style of the miniature is a pretty good proxy. It's also one of the larger 8mm GW minis so is as large as a Terminator.

I shall scour ebay immediately.... I think I only have 4 of them....

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on a list-related note, what are people's opinions on the selection of static defences?

I added more stuff than Frogbear had in his list, but removed the hyperios and tarantulas..... I'm happy to push go on testing this edition of the list, but with a view to future testing, how do people feel about the sentry guns?

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Tarantula - light vehicle
Move: 0cm, AR: 6+, CC-, FF 5+ (6+ with TL Lascannon)
TL Hvy Bolter: 30 cm, AP4+
TL Lascannon: 45 cm AT4+
Notes: Automaton, Scout

4 Tarantulas and 4 Gun emplacements for 100 pts.

On a separate topic, Scout snipers should just replace Infiltrator from notes with Sniper added to their gun, for 150 pts. for 4 + transport., or if scout spam is a concern then use one of the following remedies:

- 175 for the detachment
- Init. 2+ for the detachment (preferred option)

Currently the list lacks 1-2 cheap(er) formations, which are necessary in order to field 450+ formations at all.

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I wouldn't mind seeing tarantulas back in the list; I liked having access to a bunch of area-denial weapons on overwatch in Frogbear's list (and could easily see myself using them in a defensive siege list as an alternative to the otherwise-mandatory hunter for ground-based AA), but it's your list to craft and if you feel you have sufficient toys, that's your prerogative.

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I am thinking adding the platforms back in

@LoM good call on the snipers, I think removing infiltrate may be the way forward, I don't forsee scout spam being an issue (I'd rather use a fellblade and moar tanks but that's just me....) I prefer it to dropping them to int2+ as I think that's much more of a significant change overall, I'll trial that change in 0.2 thanks

I dont want to encourage completely static play by adding too many fortifications but I think hyperios may need to go back in at some point.... will ponder

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Kyuss, I have updated the link for the Index Astartes :
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=23690&p=453307#p453307
on the forum to this new version.

I love this list! Very cool. It's nice to see a loyalist equivalent to IW! I love how you handled Centurions. You mentioned in the BA thread that you weren't sure they warranted their own entry or not. I sort of also think they are so similar to terminators that they may not warrant their own entry, but, including them as upgrades, and with the stats you have is just perfect, if they are to be included. Kudos.

I also think the exclusion of Thunderhawks and drop pods is a very interesting idea.

It's so cool how you guys do such a good job of making each "flavor" of marine play totally differently. I wish I could collect and play them all!!

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