I will test out some of these changes for feel this evening. It won't be much of a balance test as I'm playing against Knights ;-)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Here's hoping you bring a lot of Pred Destructors!

_________________

I'll definitely try them for feel. A's too.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Has anyone ever felt there is a problem with Warhound pairs? I'm completely stumped by this.

A 0-1 limit on singles and the more dangerous crit will do plenty to reduce their usage, this MASSIVE suggested change will just get rid of warhounds entirely.

I do not think that warhound pairs need a price bump. The problem is with singles.

I'm also not a fan of Tacs getting land raiders. Seems very unfluffy since LR are typically seen with things like elite command squads or terminators.

Thunderbolts is also an unwarranted change.

Vindicator and the rest I could go either way, but I'm not comfortable with this many changes at once. I think the focus should be on the warhounds and then see how the list dynamics are affected before applying changes to make alternatives to the warhounds like preds and LR more useful and likely to be used in place of them.

_________________
-Vaaish

Warhound pairs seem fine to everyone; it's the advantages conferred by a fearless, powerful, durable, cheap activation that are being contested. Warhound pairs are no longer a cheap activation, which makes up for them increasing all of their other strengths.

Personally, I figure that if there's a Land Raider attachment in the Tactical Squad it just means that there is and elite command squad involved. It is a solid third of a company, after all. Since Veterans and Command squads are essentially abstracted out at this scale, it's a good way to indicate a more experienced crew.

Fine.



3+ FF is excessive. FF seems to be provided by quantity of firepower, not quality.



I'm not sure the LR upgrade is necessary (though it's not necessarily bad).



Warhound pairs are fine at 500. The problem is with individuals.

Are you talking about getting rid of individuals?



I think this'd be fair.



I think this would be OK, too. Warlords are pretty damn expensive in a Marine list.



Rhinos make sense due to necessity. Razorbacks really don't. Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth the effort, at least in this round of changes.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

It would be better to have a 200pts Tacitical Detachment with 4 Tactical units plus transport and give them the option to take either 2 additional Tactical units plus transport OR 2 Land Raiders (replacing the Rhinos). The last option could even be called "Veteran Upgrade".

All other changes seem fine apart form the +50pts for the Warhound pair. It isn't needed. Single Warhounds are perceived as aproblem not the Pair.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

My apologies to everyone! The Warhounds would not be singles at all. This would be the only Warhound purchase option.

Look. It is possible to balance them. There will come a point where people would not buy them. Put them 25 points below that.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Absolutely no to banning single warhounds entirely.

I understand, don't get me wrong but at 550 it's the same cost as 2 singles(which you now can't buy). If you want Titan allies I think a premium isn't a bad option to make people think more about it but still let people use them rather than a hard 0-1 or removal altogether.

You could look at it as perhaps you have a brand new titan group so all you get is a Warhound pair and/or perhaps it reflects Mechanicus reluctance for the use of a single.

The net result of those changes will be noone ever taking warhounds. Too much.

Noone has ever complained about the cost of warhound pairs. They weren't underpriced, they were seen much and upping their price while also banning the singles is completely reckless.

At 275 points with the new nasty critical they really aren't that bad.

What was it CS said earlier in the thread...? And given what Yme Loc said I'm not sure your statement "no one will take them" is valid

So then it would be back to 500 if that's the case. Remember I said 500 is still possible.... This isn't a hard "this is what I am putting forward to the ERC right now." It can be tested and then maligned.

No one's saying the stats and data for the unit aren't fine, that isn't the issue with the Warhounds. The over-abundance of their use in lists is, for many people. This addresses it - albeit some people won't like it.