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Land Raider Achilles

 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Athmospheric wrote:
As I said, I think we could do very fine with three generic flavour of LR at most. But we are probably only a minority in thinking so. I think I might end up making a few example lists to show what army lists could look like.


You are not in a minority. :)

The Achilles was included as a replacement of the standard Land Raider so as to get passed the "kitchen sink" principle.

Edit: The above may change however. By including both types, it will be an interesting experiment to see which gets chosen as the preferred Land Raider for any standard game. I daresay that the Standard Land Raider will win out.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:38 pm 
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The Achilles is more suited for a Offensive list. Rumbling toward enemy fortifications, shooting at targets of opportunity with it's Thunderfire Cannon and then Multi-melta the hell out of the opposition.
It has no place in a relatively static Defensive list.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:48 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
The Achilles is more suited for a Offensive list. Rumbling toward enemy fortifications, shooting at targets of opportunity with it's Thunderfire Cannon and then Multi-melta the hell out of the opposition.


BL, you should write for GW. You make them sound far better than what they actually are :D

Seriously, take them in a game and then get back to me with the awesome results.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:54 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Played a game tonight...It is nothing special IMO. I would prefer the standard Land Raider myself.

For epic the Thunderfire on the Archiles is secondary and less useful than the quad multi-meltas. 3+ FF MW and 2 x 4+MW shots are what makes it such an awesome and deadly siege tank (and make it considerably better than a normal Land Raider - these should be at least 100 points each, maybe more).

Even if people are against the 3+ Reinforced Armour (which is a bit big a step up), I do think it should be tested with an invulnerable save instead as this is already acceptable with a character land-raider. Otherwise you're just not doing justice to the extra hardness the siege-tank is supposed to have.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:56 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
BlackLegion wrote:
The Achilles is more suited for a Offensive list. Rumbling toward enemy fortifications, shooting at targets of opportunity with it's Thunderfire Cannon and then Multi-melta the hell out of the opposition.


BL, you should write for GW. You make them sound far better than what they actually are :D

Seriously, take them in a game and then get back to me with the awesome results.


Well if i can manage to run my vasall again perhabs today? :)
But i guess i need the current version and modules etc....

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Agreed with what Glyn done wrote.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Is it needed?

Not for 90% of Space Marine lists.

But for a Siege list, it should be there.

Just like for Black Templars, they should have the Land Raider Crusader.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:27 pm 
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So what are the agreed stats so that I can playtest with the knowledge that I am helping development in this area?

Currently I have them at the same weapon layout with 4+RA and a FF4+ and 4 for 325 points. I thought that was a reasonable cost (?)

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Won't running them with your stats and points cost provide data just the same? Go forth and play, and then you can advice the board on your findings.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:35 am 
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Hi all! I've been away, unable to get my game on for many moons, but I'm doing my best to get back into the Epic vibe and catch up on what I've missed... :)

I realise the discussion here is around inclusion of the LR Achilles in the IF list, but I, for one, would be very interested to see how it might be incorporated into the Codex Marines list (along with the other LR variants, for that matter). My guess is the standard LR is the most broadly useful of all, but I can definitely see the Achilles filling niche offensive and defensive roles.

While I understand any desire to avoid making changes to the Codex Marines list that might inadvertently break it, I'm nonetheless a big fan of "flavour" in my games, see..."new" and "change" are my salt and pepper. So consider this a personal request rather than something I'm looking for in the next tournament. :)

Having said that, if someone's already done the hard yards of how they might best fit with the rest of the Codex list without breaking it, that would save me a lot of grief. For example, while I can see that dumping four Achilles out of a Landing Craft with, say, Terminator and Dev formations might make for a whole lot of fun for me, if such a thing is _stupidly broken_, it won't be any fun for my opponent.

It is possible (make that likely) that this has been discussed at length already and I've just missed it/can't find it, so apologies if I have inadvertently reopened old wounds. :)

Looking forward to reading people's thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:49 am 
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I'd say go with 4+RA. The Leman Russ is a good example of how something is over armoured due to abstraction. Why make something more "super" just because 40K makes it a fanboy wetdream?

I think a formation of 4 for 350 (same cost as standard raider) would be a good starting point. If it works out worse in play then drop it. Somehow with the shootiness (albeit short ranged) it has I doubt it's not worth it. It's a WE hunter at the very least.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:24 am 
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Ares wrote:
Won't running them with your stats and points cost provide data just the same? Go forth and play, and then you can advice the board on your findings.

I really would rather just test stats that are likley to be accepted, and not my own for this thing. The options are:

1. 4+RA and a FF4+ - 4 for 325 points (currently as I have them)
2. 4+RA and a FF3+ - 4 for 350 points
3. 4+RA and a FF4+ and Inv Save - 4 for 350 points
4. 4+RA and a FF3+ and Inv Save - 4 for 375 points

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Achilles
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:30 am 
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Is it really worth a FF3+ though? Even with twin multi-meltas?


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