Heh. Yeah. I realized that shortly after I posted. The idea that they had a limitation on fire support options got twisted from "no armor formations" into "no Dev formations" in my head.


Good intel.


I get where you're coming from but I think the suicidal berzerker attitude should be reflected in some fashion with respect to command and control. Without that, all you have is Really Awesome Marines (tm).

Aye that probably should be so...

In 40k you roll a dice for each squad in your army at the start of the game... on a roll of a '1' the squad is treated as being under the effects of "The Red Thirst" meaning they lose the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule, and gain Fearless (which means in 40k that they can never become broken) and Furious Charge (which gives them bonuses when charging into close combat).

Mapping that directly across would simply make them become Awesome Marines, of course.


That's from the fluff text for the 40k "Red Thirst" rule.

Perhaps something like this might actually be appropriate... and compensate for those faster Rhinos...



So most Blood Angels formations would generally be okay, but would occasionally start acting crazy when they fail a command check... and they'll then tend to continue acting crazy as they'll find it hard to pass an order test from that point on due to their new Initiative Rating, unless they use the Inititative bonus to Marshall (spend some time calming down a bit).

The Death Company formation could have a note that it always counts as suffering from the Red Thirst, and may never Marshall.***

Now that's an army-wide drawback that might well help represent the nature of the Blood Angels.

Plus it would be hillarious to have Whirlwind drivers suffering from the Red Thirst, repeatedly having to "Hold" after failing to activate because the crew of one of the tanks want to jump out and start beating people to death with their bare fists.



***To compensate for that making the foot-based DC look rubbish (They already do, actually), and the Thunderhawk-based DC great, the DC formation can become something like:
- 4 Jump Pack Death Company units, plus Chaplain - 300 points
OR
- 6 non-Jump Pack Death Company units, plus 3 Rhinos, plus Chaplain - 275 points

Or something.

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I like it.

I've not read the new Codex. Does the red thirst tend to be exacerbated (sp?) by combat, or does it tend to be sated? Which is to say, I see the BA as falling under the Red Thirst, then being kinda nuts until they get into combat, not being nuts until they get their afternoon tea.

Perhaps being subject until they make an Engage action, instead of a Marshal?

From my impression of reading the codex, being in combat does not slake the desire for bloodshed.

Only composure and force of will can keep a Blood Angel under control. A Marine killing things whilst suffering from the Red Thirst is likely to just make him crazier, not calm him down.

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3rd try - still getting used to the new board format.

If 40K is no longer modeling C&C issues, then I think we can skip it. (though I agree the Ork-like results above would be amusing)

I agree with fixed DC formation size and I agree with separate pricing. The thing to watch will be loading the DC in a Landing Craft. I know the above costs were just an example, but compare...

DC + Assault/Chaplain in Thawk - 775
Ground DC + 2 Dreads + 3 Rhinos in LC - 775

The jump packers have some advantages, but I think it would be a tough case to argue that the LC isn't better overall.

E&C: I like your Red Thirst idea

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Fair 'nuff. Like I said, I don't have access to the fluff at this point.

If it must be faster, I'd lean to faster under certain circumstances - Rhino chassis get +5 cm when taking certain actions. On the larger scale that Epic represents, it makes a lot of sense that you wouldn't always be able to go full tilt, and would keep to more reasonable speeds unless necessary. Plus, my impression has always been that this is mostly used to get closer to the enemy, which this wouldn't entirely represent, and that otherwise they tend to putter about at more normal speeds.

Maybe give a formation with enough Rhinos to transport it +5cm when engaging, and +5 to Rhino movement when taking an Advance action.

Also, I don't want to represent the past - say, rather, that I think the Blood Angels are more than just what they are right now, and may be different again in the future. Better to represent iconic Blood Angels than keep changing to represent 'right-now' Blood Angels. IMO.

Especially when right-now Blood Angels were written by a card carrying twerp.

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I agree with Knave about the +5 move on Engage etc. Much more civil.

I third Knave's idea.

DC don't currently have a "must charge" rule. Nor do the EpicUK DC.
Currently they both have the same rule = "Ignore BM penalties when attempting to Engage".

Which is just a minor buff to your initiative rating when trying to Engage, nothing there about "must charge".

Changing it to my proposed "Red Thirst" rule would actually bring them closer to "Must Charge", as it'll be pretty hard to get them to do anything else because they're so bloody furious all the time (Init 4+ trying to do anything else) !


I think the fluff is quite inconsistent on this point, sometimes indicating serfs and sometimes indicating Marines drafted in from the reserve companies... and Rage suffering Whirlwinds would be both hillarious, and a concrete drawback to balance the benefits Blood Angels get.


Agreed, KISS.


We could make the Bike upgrades larger, or cheaper if they're undesirable currently.

The point is that the Blood Angels have a different way of using their Bikes (In support, not as the forefront of the attack) so it could be good to represent that preference in this way.

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The new codex is quite clear that Blood Angels bikers are rare eccentrics and the vast majority choose the option of soaring above the battlefield on wings of jump packs instead - which makes perfect thematic sense.

Just because the average codex chapter can deploy a whole company of bikers doesn't necesarily mean Blood Angels can or do; kit numbers vary a lot e.g. the Ultramarne chapter have only 12 Land Raiders while the Blood Angels have around twice that many. I think removing the biker formation and just leaving them in as upgrades only as is now is the best way to do it.

+1 for simple 5cm speed boost all the time. There's really no need or advantage to invent new special rules to limit it to only some of the time. Bikes already move 35cm and aren't decried as terribly overpowered because of it.

Nope. The current rule is pretty unnessesary and fairly flavourless IMO, which I why I suggested dropping it in the first place.

If it's not really doing much, then it should be changed, or dropped.


How often do your Whirlwinds fail their activation?
The answer is rarely, in my experience.

We could make the rule "Red Thirst on Infantry formations only" if angry Whirlwind drivers proves unpalatable... but I don't think it'll be such a problem as you're implying... and if it is a problem, a 25pt points drop for Whirlwind Formations might make the slight unreliability easier to stomach.

I think the rule would be cool, especially when the Codex background talks about events like Devastators ignoring orders, dropping their heavy weapons and charging into close combat with Orks, dieing swiftly under the blades of the enemy when they could have stood off at range and won the fight.


Mmmmm, I agree they're currently unattractive!

And that, regardless of other options in the list, is a problem that should be fixed.


I've proposed removing the Bike formation as the codex says things like:

"The Blood Angels operate fewer Bike Squads than other Space Marine Chapters"
"...few Blood Angels are anything but reluctant to yield their jump pack for a ground-bound bike"
"Unable as they are to field a single unstoppable bike assault force..."
"Acting (instead) as swift-moving outrider screens for advancing Rhino and Predator armoured convoys"

The alternative to removing the formation would be to limit them to 0-1 formation per 3000 points, or similar. They certainly seem to be rare both in the Blood Angels Chapter and their decendant Chapters.

I'm also considering putting an independent Predator formation back in there, formed of 4 Baal Predators, due to the background text talking about them moving ahead of the main Blood Angels army.

Pred A's and D's would be available as Upgrade choices for the Baal Predator formation (Well, the "Heavy Support" upgrade would, anyway). Also bikers.


Aye, they're great alright, only their armour save is mediocre (4+) in a formation that will likely have few AT targets.

Extra points though?
Also, Bloodstrike Missile could come down to AT5+ instead of 4+ to make the Stormraven a bit worse.

I like that we finally have a transport choice for Dreadnoughts, for the first time in 20 years (Since Land Raiders were allowed to carry them way back in the mists of time).

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