Hena

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I thought the whole trick to using marines was to be agressive, whether in offence or defence. This is certainly when I've had most trouble against them. I've never even heard of marine garrisons before, are they any good? Certainly against nids I wouldn't have thought they had enough to stop a swarm eating them before their support comes from the end-zone.

Is it not that IG are the line troops and marines are the point assault/reinforcement troops? Why not put the garrison formation into pods so the main of the force is foot slogger with something to land behind the nids backs, as it were.

It would be like running Eldar without gates, storm serpents, or Vampires. Crikey, that would mean a lot of fractured and broken pointy-eared bodies.

Must try it some time  

GlynG: I had the exact same sentiments and discussions when I started Epic with Space Marines.

It does suck a bit that the official SM list only really does Air Assault, but I got over it...by buying and using Guard.

The Scions list I'd highly recommend for a ground pounder force, but both the official and Scion list are still Marines, with Marine inherent weaknesses, and so are not as easy to use, resilient or able to put down as much firepower as armies like Guard or even Orks.

I do go back to Marines every now and then, but I know I'm not gonna win the games, it's just a refreshing change from Guard.

Hena is also one of the three people on the Epic Rules Committee.

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This list has a few key flaws which make it sub-optimal.

1 - It has no air assault capability.
Sorry to say it but the Codex Marine list is not competative unless you rely on air assaults in some form, whether that be from Spacecraft/Drop Pods or Thunderhawks/Landing Craft. This flaw has not been fixed by any of the third party rules development groups.

2 - You've taken Dreadnoughts.
Dreadnoughts are rubbish unless they're air-assaulting, they don't have the speed to do anything if deployed on the ground, and don't have the resilience to form strongpoints to anchor a Garrison (indeed they may paradoxically make it more vulnerable by adding some Armoured Vehicle type targets for the enemy to shoot at). The NetERC have proposed using Dreadnoughts with 3+ armour saves, which you may find makes them useful.

3 - You took Land Speeder Tornados.
Land Speeder Tornados aren't as good as the stock Land Speeder, despite costing 10pts extra per model. The NetERC rule mods suggest you swap Land Speeders for Land Speeder Tornados for free, which is a more sensible costing.

4 - The Librarian should probably be with some Devestators.
With Devestators the Librarian can use his Smite attack to the fullest.

5 - Land Raiders are too expensive to take many of them.
I normally only add a single Land Raider to a Devestator formation, not two. The EpicUK tournament group suggests taking them at 75pts instead of 100pts, and I agree that that is probably a more suitable price for them.

4 - You took 4 Razorbacks for one of the Devestator formations?
If you hadn't have taken so many Razorbacks & Land Raiders, you could have squeezed another formation into your army (perhaps a Thunderhawk Gunship) which would have acted as a force multiplyer. Instead you tried to build a ground-pounding Marine army, which as stated above, doesn't work well.


I note you have no Thunderbolt fighter aircraft, and no anti-aircraft Hunters... did you know ahead of time you'd be facing Tyranids?

Did your opponent also know what army he'd be facing?

It's much harder to make a sub-optimal Tyranid list than it is to make a poor Codex Marines list.

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No I will never give up, not even if it becomes the most balanced see-saw in all the kingdom.

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and I'm sure by saying it enough your views will become fact - they seem to be treated as such thus far

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I've no idea what you mean by that.

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Haven't used straight rulebook in a long time. Use Handbook 08, though not really significant differences between this and the NetERC or UK tourni mods for lists involved in our games. Eitehr way I'd recommend using one of the army list modifiers as straight rulebook marines have really tough time of it without simply going straight air assault.

Re Vindis: In Handbook, this has megaweapon vindicators but the marine players seem to have generally abandoned using these as still not as good value for points as other options (though they still make an appearance sometimes). NetERC or UK I doubt you'd see them much at all.

Re Landraiders: I would strongly disagree that these don't measure up to Russes. 8 Landraiders (700 points with amendments) = 10 Russ plus 1 Hydra. Landraiders have less overall firepower but a large number of extra advantages - esp Landraiders are faster, more resilent to suppression/crossfire, better initiative, two formations rather than one. Victory is all about being able to get firepower where you want it, when you want it, and Landraiders are better able to do that.

Re Predators: Annihilators = cool. Destructors = not.

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Seconded.

SM can´t just hang back, do some Sustains and Overwatches IG-style and expect to shoot up an approaching Nid horde.

Concentration of force, rapid relocation, engaging on their terms on well supported assaults are the keys to victory for SM not only against Nids but against any foe.

Trying to shoot with SM is a classic beginner´s mistake, Tacticals hit CC/FF on a 4+ against all types of targets, clearly shooting RA 4+ with AT6+ Missile Launchers is not going to work.

Proper Engages will smash the enemy, FFing Nids and Orks, CCing Eldar and IG, Marines have the speed, the flexibilty and the strategy rating to pull it off, again and again.

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Trying to shoot with SM is a classic beginner´s mistake, Tacticals hit CC/FF on a 4+ against all types of targets, clearly shooting RA 4+ with AT6+ Missile Launchers is not going to work.

Are you confusing the level of abstraction in Epic? The 'shoot the big ones' tactics from 40k will not work in the same way in Epic because an Epic assault is the equivalent of an entire 40k battle. Targetting dominatrixes (dominatrices, domniatrii   ) and possibly tyrants is all well and good, but you simply cannot pour enough fire into large mixed detachments containing lots of infantry/guard models to take out choice targets unless you are very lucky, or your opponent has made a mistake with model placement.

All my rangers with sniper find it hard to take the nobs out of large ork formations, and they can choose targets, unlike devastators. All the rangers are really there to do is act as a road block, try and get their targets if they can, and lay blast markers prepping for assault. Even guard artillery would find it difficult to annihilate an entire army of tyranids before they assault, and marines are far fewer in number (albeit more manouevrable, helped by their air transports).

Marines have the ability to shoot up tyranids, but from the context of a 40k battle, that is in assaults and firefight. It may not seem like shooting because you are not deliberatly rolling 'shooting dice' after an advance or double, but that is the abstraction.

I think nid formations are designed to be beaten off, come back for more, possibly several times, before being wiped out. And that is via assaults. And I hate marine assaults   .

Whether the entire marine base list needs tweaking: I think not, bar the occasional tank points cost, I leave that up to more qualified heads than mine. They are certainly a match for my Eldar. Damn them.

Marines have the ability to shoot up tyranids, but from the context of a 40k battle, that is in assaults and firefight. It may not seem like shooting because you are not deliberatly rolling 'shooting dice' after an advance or double, but that is the abstraction.

Generally, one winnows away the "chaff" little ones with engages, and then follow up on broken/depleted swarms to hit the juicy Synapse.

Or, in a more "shooting" army like Guard or Eldar, concentrate you firing on AT targets to bypass the Gaunt "meat shield" and hit the AVs and LVs in the swarm.

Unfortunately, Marines tend not to have the level of actual shooting power to exploit that... though a Predator Annihilator Detachment can through out a lot of fire.

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