You could also start squeezing the DC and an Assault formation +Chappie into a Thunderhawk.... +2 Inspiring FTW

Ooh. That's a fresh approach. I like that idea and definitely think it's worth implementing.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

I think we should keep them 6 strong -as tacticals, a mainstay unit in a BA army, not something like a support formation (as in other SM armies, or like Devastators)! But next to Raptors (as I previously mentioned many times before) they are expensive! Just try to keep them 6 unit strong!

225p for them, is good -with a + stands for 75p. Sounds fair for me! I tried them with Stormravens before, and they were not the best combination! CC is weaker/less favorable than FF in the EA system..

I'd take devestators over them in most situations. There's nothing in the list that makes them any more mainstay than in the codex list. 4 vs 6 will not change that (actually at 4 you might see them a whole lot more).

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

I think they should be a mainstay unit -according to the fluff! 6 units in a formation is more like a core formation of an army, not like the 4 unit strong ones -feeling like a support formation. So according to the fluff, and the BA's style of fight, they should be core formations, rahter than support ones! So I'm for a 6 strong unit, not a popcorn one, like in the vanilla marine list

I used them many times in my previous lists, and almost all the time, they were overpriced as a dedicated CC unit -against skimmers, RA , with no ranged attack, etc. But with the cheaper Stormravens, might work sometimes!

Yeah I'm just saying the list itself doesn't make them any more core. You take them because you're a fluffy player (and that's in no way a bad thing). If they were compulsory or opened other options they'd be more "core" than they are in both lists now where they are for all intents and purposes, neck and neck. Yes you can pick up some small amount of greater lasting power but equally balanced by price as to be a wash-you're typically already constrained in marine lists by the activation/price balance fight. That said, the dynamic of things does change as the points increase.

Most of this stems from the fact that CC is simply not as good a mechanic as is FF usually without some other boost/balance (expendable and cheap, or FS/Infiltrator abilities). What we really need is another ability in EA called berserk which means they cause fear in the opponent via how aggressive and savage they are in CC. Would solve the Khorne Beserker issue as well. Not going to happen at this point but if I could turn back time [hums Cher to himself].

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

I call them core, because they are not popcorn units -so if you buy them, they influence your list -you have to choose tactics built around them a bit -in short terms, they are too expensive to be on the table without a serious role. So they define your army, without being compulsory, or something -you go by the assault way, or by another way, but then you won't buy just a single assault marine unit

So I called them a mainstay unit by this logic, not because they are compulsory or something. Clearly understand your toughts (yeah, some points really make sense), but I just vote for a 6 unit strong formation, and against the 4 strong. Be a bit an army defining unit if you pick them, or they all should stay at home

IDK, I pretty much think that describes any unit that makes a back bone of a force. I mean, replace Assault Formation with Land Raider and the whole point still is true.

Anyways we're here to discuss Blood Angels 2.3 and not any semantics differences. Weeeeee!!!

So I want to touch back on Storm Ravens and what the unit is intended to do/be in the list. I think there's a problem as the unit doesn't really have an articulated purpose. I often hear them referred to as Flying Land Raiders but I think that's inaccurate and mentally/expectations misleading. They are not and do not work like that. If anything they are closer to being, in current incarnation, a flying Razorback if anything. Taken in that light a separate formation is bunk (as well as a waste usually). They're a planetfalling flying razorback embedded a formation to give it more shooting and staying power than podded Marines. In that role they are somewhat effective.

If a Storm Raven is instead to represent the BA primary light-armour hunter and rapid reaction force then the unit is flawed at the fundamental level. It should be instead a light rapid assault transport to make rapid air attacks and drop tacticals or whatever into FF and bug out. Think a skirmisher's younger brother of the thunderbrick. What in air Calvary terms were outrider units to the core assault group. The size of the transport ability is more about the jump in unit type (air vs land) than other factors.
edit: also think about the relationship between the light Cayuse and heavier Huey in the US 1st Cav in Vietnam as being somewhat closer to the Storm Raven / Thunderhawk relationship

If you ask me (and I know you didn't), the reason they are an AV skimmer and not an AC is due to the broken transport rules in EA. If you're transporting another formation, it all has to fit into the vehicle. That's a precedent long since abolished as being retarded and making some types of units no longer work. Instead of changing the rule globally and opening an unintended hole in existing units and lists, the solution has been to add to those units "count as a single vehicle for transporting purposes" to the unit notes. See Thunder Hawk Transporters and Storm Eagles for use of that. AFAIK, the core BA list and concepts generally predate all that. I am not saying anything needs to be done in that light, more giving some perspective on the road traveled so far.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Lots to digest here.

I like Dobbsy's idea of simply adding in 4-stand assault marine formations and would like to implement it. I'd say we're about ready for a version change, so I'll do that shortly.

It would be nice if we could find a way to make the 6 and 8 stand formations viable, but I'm at a loss as to how to do that at the moment. Maybe allowing them to take a Sanguinary Priest upgrade that grants them CC First Strike or something? In 40k, Blood Angels can take a Sanguinary Priest, which is basically a unit upgrade that grants a 6" Invuln Save + Furious Charge bubble. Just throwing the idea out there.

Jimmy, you bring up a lot of great points about the SR. The main problem is that its role is not well-defined. I think that's just how it is. It's not a very well-defined unit to begin with, even in 40k. It's just kind of... there. As I've said before, I essentially view it as a fluff inclusion rather than a unit that is to be taken seriously. Maybe there is no point to trying to make it work? The only thing that I could think of that would make it truly interesting is giving it a multi-melta instead of a heavy bolter, but I think we're a little too far along to implement that change now.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

The conservative choice would be to keep it AV Skimmer. MM inclusion is moot I feel. I'd rather fix the rockets which just don't work in practice. The 4 shot thing was broken. 2 shots just don't pay off against heavy armour where they have a high chance of bouncing off (usually 50% as most RA is 4+ in practice). There's a middle ground to be found I expect where in once they shoot their wad they still have some use. I'd rather get a lascannon than a bunch of one shot rockets

The bold choice is reimage the unit from the ground up to give it a defined role and ability as an aircraft. The only other list using it is Grey Knights and that's not even under active development and lacks even an AC so sod them
It's a complete reset to this list.

Feeling are that if we do the latter we'll end up with a list that plays better and feels right to us BA folks and actually works but we'll get it in 2 years. The former route will leave a bad taste in our mouths but we'll get approved in a few months.

There's no right or wrong here. Just decisions.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

My overwhelming preference and priority is to get an approved BA list. I think we're very close to having something fun and functional. May not be perfect, but will be good. We can work on more serious tweaks later.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Yup. Or an alternate form. There can be more than one BA list.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Well, the change of the Assault Marines, and the Stormraven will lead a full new concept -this one is almost balanced ,and not a bad one.

In case of the Stormavens, Epic Armageddon is a different game, than 40k. things might work there, but are hard to translate to a different system. Stormravens were designed to be a dedicated BA AT vehicle in EA -it was not new, that they have a different role in 40k. To fully redesign them is not a good idea -something is just don't work that well, but a radical redesign can kill the whole thing (and I bought 12 of them -it wasn't cheap )! Remember, Land Raiders are not SM MBT's, they are heavy transports -but why do codex marines have a stand alone LR formation? Because EA is a different game than 40k, so unit roles should fit this system. for example BA armies are still not good at hunting AV/WE units, without the titan plasma weapons, etc -so they need a unit, to counter titan shields, RA (with owerwhelming number of hits). These are not real problems in 40k, but should be handled in EA. My opinion is, Stormravens should be limited somehow, but there's no need of radical changes..

Assault Marines -they don't work, ok, true. Because they are expensive -for a CC unit! There's no need for another activatin booster BA unit, the list will become unbalanced/overpowered -it's almost balanced, so only minor changes are needed, not an activation booster assault marine spam -try to build a list around them, playtest it a few times, then change it! Codex Assault Marines have a different role in EA -they are good at hunting down weakened units, with the help of their mobility, (or capture objectives, etc- but it's not the question here) -but in BA armies, they should work on their own, as a hard hitting unit, in the main line. So my objection is about that the appearance of small units (with the reviously mentioned roles) will not support the BA theme -you can support their appearance by lowering ther price with 25points -and plyatest them to hell!

For sure, Jimmy, as we've discussed.

Would like to hear thoughts about the "Sanguinary Priest" upgrade granting CC First Strike to assault formations. Would that work? It seems like a fun addition to me and would also give Blood Angel assault marines that extra "oomph" that they have in 40k and in the fluff.

Pati, excellent points regarding the assault marines. You are right - the list is getting borderline activation spammy as it is. Addition of the smaller Assault Marine formations could have unintended balance consequences. I am also inclined to agree that the 6 stand formations are deserving of a 25 point discount. Let me give this some serious thought.

Would also like feedback on the Sanguinary Priests.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

First Strike is a very strong rule, so it should be caused something more seriuos reason -like Howling Banshee secial masks, or appearing-from-nowhere Warp Spiders. A SP can be a booster, but the reason of First Strike should be something more seriuos, than his presence

A sanguinary priest is a good idea for a special character -but with a different "special skill", like giving the unit an invu save, or something -which ss not too strong, but interesting.