Uhm, last time I looked, Jet bikes were 5+. Are we using the same list?

What does that do for the reasoning if they are indeed 5+?

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They are proposed to go down to 5+ as they are currently 4= in the published rulebook.

Remember, your wolves are 2 to a base? Orks are up to 7 on a base (generally 5).

It is not a straight conversion, yet if anything, Orks could take on the hits while the wolves are agile and delicate. Balance it all out and it is a wash.

A loss to the wolves is more damaging than to the orks, yet the wolves also have that agility. I believe BlackLegion has a valid observation.

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So it was yet another GW error? Seeing it is being proposed to be fixed, and NetEA already has it fixed (not sure about the UK or France), I do not believe that the logic used holds it's ground in this case.

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Oh, talking about the wolves and the like; I was at Eureka Miniatures the other week and found these for comparisons just in case others are becoming rare to find:

Left: 6mm fantasy wolves / Right: 10mm fantasy wolf



I think the ones on the left are preferable, however these is a bit of work to do to get them onto the appropriate base

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Yep, wolves are infantry so 3+, and completely up to the player modelling them.

IIRC the Eldar Jet bikes save was one of the adjustments to the list after Swordwind had already been published. I believe it came in around the same time that the Spirit Stones rule went out.

I believe the jetbike change was only proposed by Sotec before he resigned being Eldar Champion. The proposed changes were quite extensive and subsequently re-presented by Chroma in a slightly de-tuned version earlier this year. However I do not think they have been formally adopted by the NetERC either.

Jaldon's comments are a welcome view IMHO, as I do not consider the jet bikes overly powerfull. They certainly do not figure extensively in the UK tourneys except for one occasion when I tried to spam them to prove this exact question - and the result was certainly not as over-powered as might have been expected - the need to ensure combined assults in many circumstances reducing the army potential.

Yes in the Sworwind book the Jet Bikes have a 4+ save, when the official errata was put out that was changed back to 5+, but that WAS not the point I was trying to make in my post.

The point I WAS trying to make was that there is a rational for making it 4+ because we had used it before, as I explained in my earlier post. However the best way to be sure which will reflect a formations actual performance is to playtest it. I suggested starting out at 5+ and if that didn't work then use the old rational and make it 4+

I hope this clears things up on what I meant in my earlier post

Cheers

Wow what a battle! Jesse and Rich went at each other right from the gate. This battle had just about everything from brave stands to cowardly acts, and everything in between!

One could look at the table one second and think the Space Wolves were ahead then a handful of activations later think the Orks were ahead. It was a knock down drag out slug fest with neither side willing to give in.

My first impressions, from what I observed, was that the Great Company doesn't need any more help it is plenty tough enough without them. I cannot wait to get it posted. Dobbsy you want it posted here or in the Bat Rep section of the forum?

Cheers

The Batrep section is more official Jaldon. Looking forward to it.

I will have the batrep up hopefully tommorrow (Putting the finishing touches on the maps right now), Weds at the latest.

Now for a bit of a preview of what we did.
Ok the only special rules we used were the standard SM rules except the Unblooded rule which we did use, our conclusion.................

When you see the batrep you are going to understand what I am about to say. Jesse fielded three Great Companies and despite everything the Orks (Rich) could throw at them they were still in the fight on turn four. In fact during the entire battle the Orks only managed to break one of them and that took the combined efforts of a Uge Blitz Brigade and a Big Kult of Speed. Even then that same Great Company came back later in good enough fighting condition to be able to be a force to be feared!

Do we think the Space Wloves need any more special rules beyond the standard SM and Unblooded?......No.

Do we think the orgainization of the Great Companies should be changed?..........................Yes and No
Only one of Jesse's Great Companies had anything beyond a Battle Leader, and that was the Wolf Lord in the 1st Great Comapany. When I mentioned that each Great Company can have two characters in it everyone present agreed that it didn't look like the formation needed anymore 'extras' then it already had already. By the same turn of the coin everybody also felt that the present orgainization for the Great Company (Minus the extra character) was reflective of what they felt it should be.

I agree I think there is no need for the two character option in the Great Company, and I also feel it reflects well the up close resiliant nature of the Space Wolves without any new special rules.

Ok I also admit this was just one battle, but heck we got to start somewhere and right now this is how we feel.

Cheers

Thanks Jaldon! I'm really looking forward to seeing the list Jesse used.

The army list used

Space Wolves
1st Great Company 8xGrey Hunters, 2xLong Fangs, 5xRhinos, Wolf Lord w/Fenrisian Wolf 565pts
2nd Great Company 8xGrey Hunters, 2xLong Fangs, 5xRhinos, Battle Leader 500pts
3rd Great Company 8xGrey Hunters, 2xLong Fangs, 5xRhinos, Battle Leader 500pts
4th Swift Claw Pack 4xSwift Claw Bikes, 2xSwift Claw Attack Bikes, Wolf Priest w/Fenrisian Wolf 265pts
5th Swift Claw Pack 4xSwift Claw Bikes, 2xSwift Claw Attack Bikes, Wolf Priest w/Fenrisian Wolf 265pts
6th Whirlwind Pack 4xWhirlwinds, 1xHunter 375pts
7th Fenrisian Wolf Pack 6xFenrisian Wolves 150pts
8th Wolf Guard Pack 4xWolf Guard Terminators, Wolf Priest 375pts

Ork Horde
1st Big Warband 4xNobz, 12xBoyz, 4xGrots 350pts
2nd Big Warband 4xNobz, 12xBoyz, 4xGrots 350pts
3rd Big Warband 4xNobz, 12xBoyz, 4xGrots 350pts
4th Baby Blitz Brigade 3xFlakwagonz, 1xOddboy Zzapp Wagon 200pts
5th Baby Blitz Brigade 3xFlakwagonz, 1xOddboy Zzapp Wagon 200pts
6th Big Kult of Speed 8xBuggy, 8xWarbike, 3xSkorcha 425pts
7th Uge Blitz Brigade 12xGunwagonz 350pts
8th Deth Kopta Brigade 8xDeth Koptas 250pts
9th Stompa Mob 3xStompa, 8xDreads, Warlord 505pts

I had asked both players to NOT take any War Engines, to refrain from trying to min/max the list, and to keep their selections as simple as possible. Basically I wanted a test of the Un-Blooded rule (Hence Jesse complied usint two Swift Claw Packs) and to not worry about winning as much and worry more about testing the Great Companies in battle (Which is why Jesse fielded three of them and stuck em right in there in the battle) I must compliment bot Rich and Jesse for worrying more about a playtest of the Great Companies and the Swift Claws then who won the battle.

I thank them both

I should have batrep up tommorrow if I can figure ouyt how to post the maps with the commentary.

Sorry it took so long the batrep is up in the Battle Reports section

Blame my total inept abilities with the net and computers

I'm looking at these upcoming changes for 2.2:

Removal of the Fenrisian Wolf extra attack for the Hero upgrade. It's too fiddly and the silly outcome where you can have wolves accompanying a hero on a bike bugs me If people want the fluffiness just model them on an infatry base - that's what I'll probably do myself

Removal of the ability to have 2 Heroes. Changed it so that a Great Company can select any hero type for its built in character and other packs can select one from the list too. From the feedback through Jaldon's game I think having a built in hero for the Great Company is enough to start with - I don't recall any other Codex Marine list having a built-in character at all so it still seems to make the SW more hero-focussed (a secondary aim I have for the Wolves) than anyone else. If it shows that an extra one is needed then it can revert.