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The Mud-Marine Challenge

 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:10 pm 
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Well, some of us are just infantry goobs from way back...

I'd take the list I posted above and do some fiddling to add Annihilators in place of some of the razorbacks and either bikes or speeders.  They would fill the same fire support role with more AT but less assault capability.  Overall army performance should be pretty similar.

LRs aren't really a choice for me because my normal use of SMs depends on activation count and high strategy rating and expensive LRs obviously don't fit with that.  I might even drop one of the Tbolt formations for Hunters but then you're starting to cut into activation count.

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:22 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Oct. 23 2006,18:48)
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You have pretty much avoided getting into the meat of the matter by drawing up a force that is the air-cav's big-boobed ugly cousin. ?The real advantage of the Thunderhawks and the drop-pods in the air-cav force is to get troops into combat very quickly without exposing them to significant fire in-transit. ?(Yes, yes, there is AA, but set that aside for now.) ?By taking Scouts (with their Infiltrate ability) and Land Speeders (with their high speed and Skimmer abilities) you have replicated the rapid assault nature of the air-cav without actually flying in Thunderhawks.

If you really want to take the challenge then you need to include some Tacticals and Devastators.

Ah, I was unaware of the desire for Marine armour and Tacticals as necessary in this exercise.

I shall endeavour to create a more "Codex" list if I can.

But here's a battle report of an "Armoured Recon" force vs Orks: ?BatRep

And here's another one with Marines fielding an "Armoured Recon", with a single T-Hawk and Terminator detachment, vs Eldar : BatRep





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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:21 am 
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BlackLegion's list is exactly the kind of list I've been talking about, one that includes large ammounts of infantry & tanks (For Marines anyway!), a force that in the background, 40k & previous versions of Epic should be able to compete on even ground with the enemy, yet it is a force composition that's seen as a loser's choice in Epic: Armageddon.

If a list like BL's is quantatatively inferior, then the list needs rebalancing to ensure that it's not. Space Marines are not an air-assault-only army.

PS: BL; you might want some hunters.





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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:57 am 
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BlackLegion's list is exactly the kind of list I've been talking about, one that includes large ammounts of infantry & tanks (For Marines anyway!), a force that in the background, 40k & previous versions of Epic should be able to compete on even ground with the enemy, yet it is a force composition that's seen as a loser's choice in Epic: Armageddon.

If a list like BL's is quantatatively inferior, then the list needs rebalancing to ensure that it's not. Space Marines are not an air-assault-only army.


First of all, the games haven't even been played yet, so deciding that the list is a "loser" is just a bit premature. Not only that, but one person playing a list and failing doesn't mean that list is bad. Also, this exercise should stay away from developing into an electronic whine.

Proposal

What needs to happen is let people play their games, fiddle with their lists, play some more and compare notes.

It's not just a matter of picking units and then doing a mental exercise.

Also, some people will learn from others about things that you shouldn't do with your SM, armor, air assault or whatever force type it might be.

My Personal SM Journey

After studying the problem, watching others play, getting my own nose smashed a few times, it's becoming clear that a lot of people are playing SM in an attrition style of play (including myself early on), to quote Blarg. That will cause you to get blown away every time.

Because the idea of how to use SM's in an air assault role seemed more tangible to me (and appealing), that is how I have decided to cut my teeth. I've learned a lot from that exercise and continue to learn each game.

A "mud marine" force seems feasible given the tools that are available, though I think for some it comes short because they want to play with a lot of SM tanks. However, there are people winning tournaments with SM and have been doing that since the game went live. So, the idea that the list is completely broken isn't universally accepted because not everybody loses with it. It is a difficult list to manage, as I have learned, and it is very unforgiving, unlike 40K SM.

Now, I don't know how to pull off a MM list yet because I haven't tried it, but I think the SM can be a very dangerous mech infantry force, with the possible addition of some armor or land speeder units. Bikes could also be helpful as Neal has posted. "Some" tanks might be able to provide useful supporting fire. However, if they did, it would almost surprise me as they certainly don't add an equivalent value in 40K, so I'm not overly surprised that they don't in Epic either.

I don't know, but I am willing to give it a shot and see what develops without assuming a foregone conclusion.

However to get back to the point of this thread, this exercise should be conducted to explore effective techniques in using the MM's, should that be your desire and let the discoveries come as they will. Setting filters on upfront could possibly limit somebodies next great idea because somebody else said, "Don't do that".

That is, if you are really serious about exploring the idea.

Consider the gauntlet tossed back... ? ?:cool:

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:06 am 
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However to get back to the point of this thread, this exercise should be conducted to explore effective techniques in using the MM's, should that be your desire and let the discoveries come as they will. Setting filters on upfront could possibly limit somebodies next great idea because somebody else said, "Don't do that".


I think Air-assault is a special case because seemingly near on every competative list out there is based around it. We're just trying to investigate whether the Marine list's powerful air assault is acting as a crutch, hiding the fact that half of the list is underpowered to the point of uselessness.

Thus in order to find out, we need to scale back air-assault usage for a while.


This'd be so much easier to organize with a Champion. :)

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:06 am 
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The SMs, for me, are a multi-roled force ... they can be an Air Assault/Air Cav force or an Infantry Heavy Mech/Armor Force ... Or if you are really talented (and have the points!) ... you field both ...

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:17 am 
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In the absence of a Champion, I took it upon myself to challenge Epicomms to play Marine lists that do not have any air assault assets.  The reason I wanted to eliminate Teleports and Air Assaults was to completely kick the crutch out from under the Marine list, if indeed the hellacious rapid-strike power of the Marine list hides the fact that many units are far underpowered.

There are other tools in the Marine toolbox than Teleporting Termies MW attacks for beating down Titans.  Land Speeders can mangle Titans, with a little support from a Predator formation or two, just like Scouts in transports make a similar counterpart to the Air Assaulting Assault + Devastator + Chaplain combo.  We need to see why almost every Marine list posted uses the Teleport/Air Assault instead of these other options.  I will accept the answer of 'theming' for a reason, or 'easiest to learn' (although I'm concerned about the air assault-based lists being the easiest to learn, too) as valid reasons, however.  Lacking evidence one way or the other, we can't see what the reason is.  I'm concerned about the fact that I don't see 'themed' army lists centered around marines on the ground.

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:43 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 24 2006,03:06)
QUOTE
I think Air-assault is a special case because seemingly near on every competative list out there is based around it. We're just trying to investigate whether the Marine list's powerful air assault is acting as a crutch, hiding the fact that half of the list is underpowered to the point of uselessness.

IIRC, at the last Nashcon tournament, MarkH took an SM force without any air assaults and came in second place in a field of 10.  I don't recall the whole force but I think it was:

Warlord Titan
Tacs w/ SC + Hunter
Predators
Whirlwinds w/ Hunter
Tacs and Devs (?)

In any case, I know it had the Whirlwinds, Preds, a Warlord titan and SC Tacs.

The one game he lost was to the tourney winning Eldar by a narrow margin.  He beat my drop pod CSM list which according to the prevailing opinion at the time was potentially abusive.  I don't recall who else he beat.

The armies in that tourney were:
3 SM
Biel Tan
Ulthwe
Tau
3 Ork
Black Legion

None of the SMs had more than 1 Thawk and they were something like 2nd, 6th, and 10th.  The 6th and 10th place players were only semi-experienced (several games but limited opponent selection).

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:11 pm 
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In the absence of a Champion, I took it upon myself to challenge Epicomms to play Marine lists that do not have any air assault assets.  The reason I wanted to eliminate Teleports and Air Assaults was to completely kick the crutch out from under the Marine list, if indeed the hellacious rapid-strike power of the Marine list hides the fact that many units are far underpowered.


I understand the intent and I think that this is a good exercise. I don't think that it's a big deal that there isn't a recognized AC at this point. What is more important is to develop documented evidence via testing about what is suspected. At the same time, I think that what will also come out of this is some solid tactics for SM players, whether they decide to feature air assault or not. So the exercise is a good one.


There are other tools in the Marine toolbox than Teleporting Termies MW attacks for beating down Titans.  Land Speeders can mangle Titans, with a little support from a Predator formation or two, just like Scouts in transports make a similar counterpart to the Air Assaulting Assault + Devastator + Chaplain combo.


I agree that there are more tools in the tool box that are not as well known as some of the others. This exercise should reveal what they are, as well as some tactics for employing them, not only with other ground units, but in conjunction with an air assault.


 We need to see why almost every Marine list posted uses the Teleport/Air Assault instead of these other options.


They are used because they are valid effective tools. There's nothing wrong with that. What I think is sort of an over-reaction is the statement that "everybody" is doing air assault and nothing but. So far, it's been my experience that most SM players are fielding a mix of AA and ground units. In fact, when I went to Memphis for their tourney, I was the only Air Assault SM list there.



 I will accept the answer of 'theming' for a reason, or 'easiest to learn' (although I'm concerned about the air assault-based lists being the easiest to learn, too) as valid reasons,


Why is this a problem? Also, I'm not stating that as a general truth, only my perspective based on preferences.


however.  Lacking evidence one way or the other, we can't see what the reason is.  I'm concerned about the fact that I don't see 'themed' army lists centered around marines on the ground.


And I would challenge that statement because my observations have been that more people play mech infantry armies than all air assault. Do they use air assault as part of their repetoire? Yep. Do they use Terminators? Yes, they do. They are very effective tools, that's why they use them. But very few people use them exclusively.

I still feel that limiting the tool set is akin to telling the IG that everybody is using Leman Russ companies and so that's imbalanced, so you need to find a way to win without them because people who just use infantry companies lose too much.

So taking the same logic and applying it to other lists produces the same break in the logic.

However, I think this exercise, as stated above is worthwhile because more SM players will learn about what works in the list.

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:34 pm 
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Teleporting Terminators and Air Assault abilities is key to the SMs combat power and "Flavor" !  But it can be done, as in every game I played with the SM, I didn't use those assets.  However, L/S has a point ... the exercise should commence ! :;):

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:20 pm 
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[Wow, got promoted to Lieutenant... When did that happen?]

I guess this means that I should post a challenge over in the IG section, saying 'win without using Leman Russ Companies' ... nah, not what I'm trying to explore.  The IG lists I've seen usually have one LRuss company, backed up with Infantry Platoons, both backed up with artillery and SHTs.  That's a balanced list, IMO.  Also, there are very few complaints of underperforming units in the IG list that I've seen, while there are many different Marine units with complaints of being underpowered.

Honda:  I must have missed the reports from Nashcon.  

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:02 pm 
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The IG lists I've seen usually have one LRuss company, backed up with Infantry Platoons, both backed up with artillery and SHTs.  That's a balanced list, IMO.  Also, there are very few complaints of underperforming units in the IG list that I've seen, while there are many different Marine units with complaints of being underpowered.


Well, I suspect that fewer complaints about the IG list occur because to borrow Blargs phraseology, IG can be played in the attrition style and still be successful.

The SM cannot be used in the same way. They'll lose a battle of attrition just about every time and unfortunately, most gamers only know how to play a battle of attrition. Few of them understand much in the way of tactics or military history. They don't know what a refused flank is, never heard of Cannae, nor what to do in an ambush. It's not their fault as GW primarily teaches players that all you really need to do is line up your guys from one board edge to the other and charge forward. So if they haven't had gaming experiences outside of the GW sphere of games, then what do you think their general results will be when faced with a tactical problem that exceeded their experience or general knowledge?

So, I think this MM challenge will be a good thing in general because at the very least, different styles of play will be exposed to the general populace, new ways of looking at the same old thing will come about and perhaps, just perhaps, the original intent of the thread will be revealed....which is, how to play a MM list.

If I was going to go out on a limb, I'd say that I expect it to have very little to do with the formations chosen, and more to do with how the formations were used.

Arab proverb (and one of my favorites):

An army of sheep led by a lion, will always defeat an army of lions led by a sheep

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:31 am 
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Yep ... I'm a firm believer in the ultimate failure or success lies in the commander's hands ... in this case gamer's hands ... A poor gamer, if he plays a more veteran player,  will usually lose regardless of the armies in play !

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:46 pm 
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OK, so here's a question for you:  How do you play mud-marines without entering into battles of attrition?

Obviously, having enough terrain as well as using the terrain you do have properly is a factor here, as is maintaining multiple maneuver units above your opponent's numbers, and using said multiple units to gang up on one unit (or intermingled units) of your opponent.

Now, because the nature of a wargame means 'balanced' forces for a tournament scenario, how do you maintain an activation advantage with equal-points forces and keep your (by definition, individually smaller and less robust) units intact enough to attack the enemy, or to survive the inevitable counter-attack after your forces attack?

A Marine unit, even Scouts (who Aren't Real Marines Yet*), should have a life expectancy on the battlefield beyond one attack.  Much of the time, current Marine units are very nearly one-shot disposable formations, incapable of doing much after taking even 2-3 kills, while even Tau and Eldar can handle the loss of 2-3 units without a terminal effect on the unit's effectiveness.

*My apologies to all members of the branch of service called the ARMY (whatever nation you serve), but sometimes the brainwashing from 4 months at USMC boot camp rears it's head.  This time, I just couldn't resist.

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 Post subject: The Mud-Marine Challenge
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:11 am 
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The most obvious answer is to never commit your forces piecemeal. ?Right behind that in the Suvarov Obviousness Scale is to concentrate your forces to achieve local superiority. ?

Back in June, I shared command of a Ork army with another player and faced off against a Mud Marine force. ?He had 3 tac, 2 assault, and 1 dev formations in a strong right flank and center position that was giving me no end of worry. ?His other flank was screened by two Landspeeder formations, but they were very far forward, unsupported, and badly exposed, so we started our advance there, causing him to retreat one of the 'Speeder formations. ?The tide turned for the Orks after the Marine player had moved all but one formations in the center forward. ?The last Tac detachment hadn't moved yet, contained the SC and had been deployed in their transports. ?I brought in a Landa with a Warband (upgraded with more Nobz) and caught the detachment alone and in transports. ?The loss of that formation (and my placing a Warband in his rear) was a huge psychological blow, but was recoverable. ?I followed up with a second Landa that broke his second 'Speeder formation, and took up residence in a forest on a hill looking over his center. ?With his left flank thrown back, his SC eradicated, and Warbands on three sides, he started getting worried and forgot about "concentration of force" and "don't apply piecemeal".

He first broke my rear Warband with an Assault detachment (I stupidly countercharged into support range of one of the Tac formations, because I was worried about his nearby 'Speeders), and then Engaged the Warband near his center three different times, all poorly supported. ?He said that he was trying to throw back that Warband quickly, so he could use most of his force to counter the 'Uge warband we had coming at his front, but poor support (and great rolls on my part:) meant that the Warband was still holding that hill and half his activations were used! ?If he'd have Advanced the 'Speeders into support range, and assaulted with one of the nearby Tac squads, he would have crushed that Warband, captured the hill, and had more activations to throw back the frontal assault (which would have turned the Ork flank)!

The lessons for Mud Marines from this battle? ?First, don't leave a formation deployed in Rhinos sitting in your backfield when your opponent has Air Assaulters loaded and ready to swoop in. ?Second, if you're using a 'Speeder screen to refuse a flank, don't pull it back in the face of superior forces; use hit-and-run tactics to conduct a fighting withdrawl until you've crushed the other flank. ?Third, never ever send formations into assaults alone; have a Tac squad Advance or Double into support fire range and lay BMs (and wittle down your foe) before sending in the assault troops (preferably in a clipping assault). ?Finally, Big and 'Uge Warbands can absorb the combined firepower of half your army on Turn 1, not break, and then shed all the BMs in the End Phase; on Turn 2, however, you're on Sustain (instead of Double or Advance), so shoot out their center, clip them on a side (preferably with FF) to break them, and roll up the line. ?

Mud Marines can't pull off massive redeploys like Eldar, but careful manuvering of your Tac and 'Speeder detachments can place them where they're supporting two or three separate Engagements. THAT is what *I* call "force multiplier"!

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