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Land Raiders What are they worth
1. Land Raider Det 400 Points 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
2. Land Raidet Det 375 Points 33%  33%  [ 9 ]
3. Land Raider Det 350 Points 67%  67%  [ 18 ]
Total votes : 27

Land Raiders What are they worth
Ilushia
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:20 pm 
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85 is probably about right... But it'll add some problems with reacing round numbers...  LR formation for 350 then add 2 more for 170 will cost 420 points... That's hard to make into an even 3000 points. At 375+170 it ends up at 445, again problematic. My suggestion might be to make it cost 375 base, and have an option to add 2 more for 175 total. Like Leman Russ costing 650 base and 250 for 3 more.
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CAL001
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:13 am 
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Making a points value just to fit, is it realy neccessary, Assault Det 175! LS Typhoon 25 and Razorback 25. There are plenty of theings to make the number whole again. And most of them are typically used items. And I think you ment 520 not 420 and likewise 545.  I think we need to take more comment and see what the post I dropped on SG has to offer.

CAL
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Suvarov454
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:23 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Jul. 29 2006,23:20)
QUOTE
85 is probably about right... But it'll add some problems with reacing round numbers... ?LR formation for 350 then add 2 more for 170 will cost 420 points... That's hard to make into an even 3000 points. At 375+170 it ends up at 445, again problematic. My suggestion might be to make it cost 375 base, and have an option to add 2 more for 175 total. Like Leman Russ costing 650 base and 250 for 3 more.

Actually, Leman Russ upgrades (including Demolishers) just cost 200 points. ?Call it 65 points per tank (a Demolisher trades range for FF and Ignore Cover, which I guess is fair... I haven't played them enough).

I have no other point... I was just correcting the cost.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:19 am 
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350.

Land Raiders are expensive point sinks against orks (zzap guns), and eldar (all guns ;)).

Orks ability to 'hide' their supa guns in another unit safe from targetting is something that needs to be looked at I think... that or the range on those things. 60cm seems overpowered for a an ork weapon on a basic chasis I think.

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Suvarov454
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:24 pm 
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(Markconz @ Jul. 31 2006,03:19)
QUOTE
350.

Land Raiders are expensive point sinks against orks (zzap guns), and eldar (all guns ;)).

Orks ability to 'hide' their supa guns in another unit safe from targetting is something that needs to be looked at I think... that or the range on those things. 60cm seems overpowered for a an ork weapon on a basic chasis I think.

I humbly disagree with your evaluation of the Orks. ?If you place a BM (or two for Big formations), you've just cut the range down from 60 to the next lowest range. ?I am not disagreeing with your "point sinks" evaluation, and I am uncertain as to the correct point cost of a LR formation. ?However, try comparing these Zzap-laden Ork formations to a Shadowsword.

Shadowsword - 200 points (3 for 500)
15 cm, 4+ RA, CC6, FF5, 3DC, 90 cm 2+ TK(D3) FF ; 2x 30 cm AP5

Blitz Brigade with 4 Gunzwagons + 1 Zzap Oddboy - 200 points (3x for 500)
30 cm, 5+, CC5, FF5, 4 hits, 60 cm 3+ TK(d3); 3x 45 cm AP5/AT5

Big Gunz + 1 Zzap Oddboy - 175 points (3x for 475)
15 cm, none, CC6, FF5, 5 hits, 60 cm 3+ TK(d3); 4x 45 cm AP5/AT5

The BB is faster and more shooty in secondary weapons, but with shorter range, lower to-hit in their TK, and much reduced survivablity. ?The Big Gunz are just as slow, are even more shooty in secondary weapons, with the ability to get into cover (and use the associated cover saves), and have even lower survivability (unless in cover). ?The Orks also lose shooting ability as you cause damage... the WE is an "all or nothing" deal. ?Finally, the initiative rules also make it harder for the Orks to go into Overwatch, Marshall, Sustain, or to rally in the End Phase. ?In all, I think that the forces are roughly matched, even though they play quite differently.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:23 pm 
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I'd like to add to that analysis the 'uge blitz brigade, going full out for TK weapons.

500 points (Same as a Shadowsword company)
3x 60cm 3+MW TK(D3) weapons.
18x 30cm AP6+/AT6+/AA6+ weapons
12x 5+ armor saves (not reinforced)
30cm movement distance.

Pros: Fast, lots and LOTS of secondary attacks, can't lose more then 1 model to TK shots.

Cons: Bad armor, short range on secondary weapons. Shorter range on primary weapons.

I'd take a formation like that over a formation of Shadowswords any day of the week. They're twice as fast, can absorb 30% more TK hits (Less hits from more normal weapons), and throw out about as much fire-power as the Shadowswords do, worse average hit-rate but when combind with the secondary weapons that's less of an issue. Plus it's a moving AA battery which can throw out 18 attacks, even at 6+ that'll get a few hits. Now, that's considered an extremely beardy formation to be sure. But when comparing the capacities of two armies it's worth considering the extremes that each army can go to.
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Suvarov454
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:22 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 01 2006,14:23)
QUOTE
I'd like to add to that analysis the 'uge blitz brigade, going full out for TK weapons.

500 points (Same as a Shadowsword company)
3x 60cm 3+MW TK(D3) weapons.
18x 30cm AP6+/AT6+/AA6+ weapons
12x 5+ armor saves (not reinforced)
30cm movement distance.

Pros: Fast, lots and LOTS of secondary attacks, can't lose more then 1 model to TK shots.

Cons: Bad armor, short range on secondary weapons. Shorter range on primary weapons.

I'd take a formation like that over a formation of Shadowswords any day of the week. They're twice as fast, can absorb 30% more TK hits (Less hits from more normal weapons), and throw out about as much fire-power as the Shadowswords do, worse average hit-rate but when combind with the secondary weapons that's less of an issue. Plus it's a moving AA battery which can throw out 18 attacks, even at 6+ that'll get a few hits. Now, that's considered an extremely beardy formation to be sure. But when comparing the capacities of two armies it's worth considering the extremes that each army can go to.

Is that a challenge I smell? ??? Come up to [url="http://www.swa-gaming.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8"]Council of Five Nations XXIX[/b] this October and we shall see! ?In fact, I'll even provide the models for both sides (if necessary)! ?Better still, convince a bunch of your friends to come and borrow some of their forces. :p

P.S. for those who couldn't tell, Ilushia is describing a 'Uge BB of 3 Gunwagonz (upgraded with Zzap Oddboyz) and 9 Flakwagons.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:15 pm 
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If I but had the capacity to travel that far I would... But that's almost as far away from me as the tourny in Conneticut was. And I only made it there because I had two other people to ride with!
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:26 pm 
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One thing that Land Raiders can do that no one has mentioned is air asault.  I would also argue that TSKNF is not being given its full due.

I favor a 4+FF and 375 points.

====

Ilushia:  You should include some Gunwagons instead of all Flakwagons.  They can soak suppression at a longer range, making it harder to suppress the Zzap gunz.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:48 pm 
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Semi-OT:

I'd also like to throw in a vote that the Land Raider Helios Upgrade be included in the official rules.

+25 pts per upgraded Land Raider.
Adds a Whirlwind launcher, removes the heavy bolter, and changes Transport (2) to Transport (1).

/OT




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Reaver
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:02 am 
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I propose a different solution, one which I've used happily in my games.
Leave the points for the LR formation at 400, but allow them to use the War Engine Transport rules. This means they can transport units from another formation. So if your Tactical formation gets it's Rhinos shot out from under it, your LRs can double in andd pick them up. This fits in with the LRs WH40K rules, where LRs taken as Heavy Support choices can still 'taxi' units around. It also makes LRs properly distict from Predators, giving them a different battlefield roll.
Works for me!
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kr00za
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:53 am 
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Always a tricky one. Simply adjusting the points cost of a single unit rarely seems to work out in the long run.
Its proberly easier to tweek the LR's stats and playtest it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:02 pm 
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Helios shouldn't be part of the standard army.


It's a moderately well-used piece of kit in the background, and would fulfill an interesting battlefield role for the Marines I think, but I don't want to derail this thread too much so I'll be quiet now.

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tchristney
 Post subject: Land Raiders What are they worth
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:15 am 
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A longer range would make them more valuable. The Chaos LR from the Black Legion list are only 75 pts each. Identical stats... of course, they are getting a bit old now, being last millenium's model and all  :D  :;):
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