Played a few games over the weekend with RG, lost both and one was the most frustrating game I've ever played (against Knights)

I find scout-snipers to be useful and effective, but vanguard veterans much less so. Reason: by arming everyone with sniper rifles and ability to ZoC the enemy, scout-snipers can be a cheap and effective way to cause damage to and limit what the opponent can do. To be effective vanguard veterans MUST engage and get into CC with opponent, and I find the enemy almost always has friends nearby to lend support fire. With 4 bases hitting at 3+, I can expect to hit 2-3 times, expect the opponent to save 1, resulting in 1-2 kills. The opponent, with all friendly support fire added in, usually causes more hits and inflicts more casualties....so unless I get things set up perfectly and have plenty of support fire myself, I find vanguard veteran engagements to be a losing prospect.

I used assault marines in thunderhawks for air assault.....honestly not sure yet if that's a good idea for RG.....may be too many point taken up for one assault.

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I had a similar thought. The RG terminators are the same cost (350) as Codex Astartes, but access to drop pods makes them sufficiently better that this list may well be the default choice for anyone who wants to run a terminator-heavy force.

The downsides are scatter (which is generally very small and I assume we all know can be compensated by placement of units on the correct side of the pod), pre-plotting (I find it rare to drop too far from enemies with multiple pods/blasts YMMV) and requirement to take a ship along (which many people do anyway).

Upsides are:
The chance for an entire army of terminators to arrive without BM from AA or Teleportation.
FREE Deathwind attacks on all enemy units within 15cm. (Each enemy formation attacked receives a
Blast marker for coming under fire, and an extra Blast marker for each casualty), so its the enemy that is prepped for assault rather than the terminators that attract a BM.
Arrival during a turn rather than before the risky roll for initiative.
Teminators arriving by pods with Dreadnoughts attached to their formations.

Suggestions:
[] Raise cost of RG Terminators or
[] Remove Deathwind attacks from the pods or
[] Make Terminators pay for Droppods (probably a better idea) or
[] Use the droppod's rule in the RG pdf you posted (May transport one formation of only the following units: Devastator, Dreadnought, Tactical.) rather than the contradictory special rule

I'll post an idea of a list to see how it fits with what you're intentions are.

This is my first attempt at a RG Terminator list, but while it could probably be done better hopefully this should give an idea what I am talking about.
If several pods land near formations they might even break some of the smaller ones before the assaults start. Whether they break or just prep the enemy, it's hard to imagine many combats going to the defender.

TERMINATOR [550]
4 Terminators, Supreme Commander, 2 Dreadnought
Drop Pods (Deathwind)

TERMINATOR [500]
4 Terminators, Chaplain, 2 Dreadnought
Drop Pods (Deathwind)

TERMINATOR [400]
4 Terminators, Chaplain
Drop Pods (Deathwind)

TERMINATOR [400]
4 Terminators, Chaplain
Drop Pods (Deathwind)

STRIKE CRUISER [200]

SCOUT [150]
4 Scouts

SCOUT [150]
4 Scouts

SCOUT [150]
4 Scouts

SCOUT [150]
4 Scouts

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [175]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [175]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

Hm, RGs have that much terminator armour?

I used to play a lot with a list like this (with Blood Angels, dropping a lot of units around the same point -OK, not termies, but units like Death Company), and worked well -dropping 3-5 units is always powerful, and against armies like eldar (lot of small, fragile formations) can be devastating. But against SM (too few, maybe also a drop/teleport/air assault heavy list), Nids (they are TOO numerous and expendable to care) you will have tough times against..

These lists are always good in special situations -looks powerful/OOP/etc on paper, but if you're unlucky, it might be a mess. Remember, you can only activate 1 of them after they arrived, and the others will be free to shoot at. In case of expensive formations it's always risky -like termies, with only 4 units -without cheaper formations to support them, if your oponent is smart a bit -they will not have a chance to activate

You need to playtest this a lot, but yeah, 4-5 formations of termies with free Deathwind will probably kill the game. Maybe 2 units of termies (just to mention, it's still playing against the fluff) with drop pods, and 2 teleporting will be more precise -and keep the drop pods for cheaper units!

Edit: what's the opinion about Tempests? Aren't they a bit pricy? They have similar weapons Than Typhoons ( and AA6), and they proce was just reduced.. I never tried them, never saw them in action -so, it's just an initial feeling, but with +35 points, they are as expensive than a Land Raider..

That's a good point on the Drop Pod Terminators. I'd like to get a few games to see how bad it can be though. I'd lean towards a +25 point upgrade to allow them Drop Pods.

I agree on the Tempests as well, 375 for a formation of 5 is way too high. Something like +50 for 1-2 and +75 for 3-5 would cover the AA shot I think.

What are people's thoughts on these:

0-1 Terminator formation for every 2000 points (for fluff reasons)



Alternatively, maybe a 2DC version of the Storm Eagle instead since it's huge.

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So vanguard veterans loosing the scout ability?

About the termies: 0-1 is also fine. It's a different list, not deathwing, everyone can live with it. Then the +25 for drop pods is senseless here. no need to get more complex (2000p, etc)

Ya, just juggling around some roles so the entire army doesn't drop and ZoC you.

Assault: light assault
Devastator: heavy line unit
Scouts: light scout
Sternguard: heavy scout
Tactical: line unit
Terminators: rare heavier assault
Vanguard (Assault): heavy assault

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I can dig that.



Both Raptors and Hawklords are already using Storm Eagles under the following:

Storm Eagle Assault Transport
AC / Fighter-Bomber 4+ 6+ 3+
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+/AA5+, FxF
Vengeance Launcher 45cm AP4+, Fw
2x Twin Lascannons 45cm AT4+/AA5+

Reinforced Armour, Planetfall, Transport (four Space Marines or two Terminator units). A Storm Eagle formation counts as a single War Engine for transport purposes.

The latter part of the notes is very important as otherwise the formations they can transport are basically worthless otherwise (as an AC). They absolutely don't fit as a skimmer imho. They're an alternative to the larger TBrick and I'd advocate they are used as such. This wouldn't hold true for the Fireraptor for a huge number of reasons that the Hawklords thread has had discussion around.



Instead of allowing per points perhaps list structure where there's N core formations (where N is probably large) required for any termies?

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0-1 is much easier to count. Both versions are leading to a complicated army list.. Just make it 0-1, with free drop pods -the players may choose between the free deathwind vs the teleport ability. Dropping is strong in numbers, but one unit is not that big deal -counting in the points of the Strike Cruiser, etc

Want to combine the stats then? I could see it moved to an AC. But 4+RA is pretty high, it's armor (12/12/12) is closer to a Predator (13/12/11) than a Land Raider's (14/14/14). The Vengeance Launcher is identical to the Whirlwind, just with two shots.



We can make an army list special rule to allow a formation of two to carry a single Marine formation of up to 8 stands.

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What's the planned price of the new units? Maybe I start to think about building an army..

I'd think the veterans would be around 200-225 for 4.

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They've got the same armour as a Thunderhawk (actually more on the rear) as well as ceremite special so the 4+RA would seem appropriate, no? Being an AV it can't barge and any hits take it down in flames with the expensive marines inside who go BOOM and die. More important was that the Fatdex HH already had it as 4+RA so I went with that

That being said, would you go 3+ as Ginger had advocated?


But isn't the VL supposed to be an antipersonnel weapon only? I'm not really caring but thought others might take fluff-rage at me

All that being said yes let's keep them in line and I can be happy with this if the armour question can come to general consensus. =>



I'm going to advocate we open a specific discussion on this and get general consensus. Hate for the two of us to put a bunch of work in just to have at the last minute a bunch of people pop up at the end like ants at a picnic


That's just pushing lists to continually create an army wide rule for a unit due to a retarded rule from EA tht never should have been done in the first plac-that's how we got skmmer storm ravens . I mean, Raptors now have to have 3 rules, one of which is going to be duplicated across 4 lists?

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I'd argue that the THawk has boosted armor because it's a 3DC WE crammed into 2DC stats. A Thunderhawk is 12/12/10 in 40k and has 3 structure points (pretty synonymous with DC). I think the Land Raider/Predator comparison is less abstracted. 3+ armour is crazy good, it's not better than a Predator.

I don't have the books, so I don't know what the VL does fluff-wise. All I know is it's pretty much two Vengeance Missile shots out of the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher stats.

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Word on the vengeance. Also those ACs that want have the MM option as well for list variants.

Call it good my man!

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