The_Real_Chris wrote:
Thans for doing this, brings back memories
no worries, I've enjoyed it... mostly....
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I seem to remember a version/plan in the past for a dreadnaught formation? 4 dreads plus up to 4 emplacements I think?
possibly, never spotted it myself, sounds like a fluff inclusion to me but might make a decent blitz guarding unit I guess.... could be a potential addition if it's needed
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I would simplify the minefield/razorwire. As a more high tech force than Guard give them something more hi-tech (with a better name than I can come up with - 'obsticles'). Description - Space Marine forces can rapidly deploy a range of obsticles impeeding and channeling the enemy. Razorwire, dragons teeth and fields with a mix of anti personel, anti tank and anti skimmer mines can prove lethal to any known enemy.
Effect - dangerous terrain for all unit types.
minefields are already dangerous terrain for all unit types... I'd prefer the razorwire option be there if people want to use it....
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I would change the list a bit, in part to axe one of your special rules. Devestor and Tactical units could lose their Rhinos and get trenches instead and a price drop. So devs for 225, 4 units and 20cm of trench, tacs for 6 units and 30cm of trenches.
Then an upgrade is Rhinos - add enough Rhinos to transport the formation, 25 points.
that's pretty weak as a starting point though, and linked to your other comment about trenches, they give, and always have given, a 4+ save, so other than the -1 to hit on the troops, you derive no benefit above hugging the rhinos for cover, and you give up mobility.... not worth taking really
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Linked to that in the upgrades vehicles and dreds come with 1 emplacement each to make them easier to add to such units to emplaced formations.
this I like, I'd be happy adding it for free if a unit takes fortifications instead of rhinos
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In line with a simplified minefield/wire, the fortifications formation can be 50cm of obsticles and 6 bunkers, each bunker can be exchanged for 1 emplacement.
perhaps this would work
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You should put somewhere the rules for deploying fortifications. Something like?
Fortified positions must be set up after objectives, but before spacecraft and garrisons are deployed. The fortified positions may be set up anywhere a vehicle may deploy in the Imperial Fists half of the table. You may split up a set of fortified positions as desired, as long as the rules for formation coherency are adhered to. For example, you could split up trenches into several lines, as long as there are 5cm ‘links’ between the different parts of the position. These fortified positions count as having a move of zero. Fortified positions may not be transported.
Some formations in the army may come with a set of fortified positions; in this case the fortifications are set up at the same time as the formation they belong to and must be deployed within coherency. However once deployment is over these fortifications are terrain and are no longer a part of the formation.
Once fortified positions are set up they may be used by any unit, not just the units they were purchased for. They may be captured and used by enemy units.
Modelling fortifications and rules
Crossing fortifications. Regardless of modelled width a fortificaton can be crossed using at most 5cm of the units move (normally cautious!).
Trenches. The minimum length of a trench is 5cm. 5cm of trench holds one unit, a trench can be a continous line or split into sections.
Obsticles. The minimum length for an obsticle is 5cm.
Bunkers. Do not block LOS (they are mostly underground). If a unit in a bunker has at least one model covered by a barrage all units inside are potentially hit.
are those from the rulebook/swordwind? I'm happy to add them if required
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The special rules can surely be simplified a bit?
Special Rule - Masters of Siege
• Imperial Fists Tactical, Devestator, Terminator and Scout units count as having the 'walker' ability when traversing fortifications
[Why limit to just your own stuff? Makes them more of a siege breaking force as well. Would effect a tiny number of armies and those armies can cause marines without transports enough grief already. Also stops bikes speeding through minefields.]
just for a fair starting point, the only time this will come into effect is vs siegers or other IF lists at the moment, I don't think the IF would be particularly aware of enemy mine locations etc....
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• Imperial Fists INF formations with at least one stand occupying trenches or bunkers purchased as part of their force remove an additional blast marker when rallying or marshalling
[Is this really needed? Can't see the rational either and would lead to longer games at harder to set up static marine formation to assault them (they can clear 4 bm's a turn or 7 with a leader). If it is needed why not create a less commander of 'veterin seargant/siege searant/sieger sarge etc who give a stand leader and +1CCMW attack for 25 points.
having played many games, they really need something to help them shed blast markers, I've already added a techmarine character, didn't fancy adding more
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• Imperial Fists INF units within trenches purchased as part of their force gain the ‘first strike’ ability
[Also seems a bit much, what led you to think they should be able to do this - are 3+ saves not enough?]
[Also for all these abilities, does it count when assaulting out of positions? While the fists might not move you can't count cover saves and seem to be counted as being outside them.]
this was added to represent the 'hidden' factor, with troops better able to hide and launch counterattacks, it also gives trenches a purpose as they only give a 4+ save which is of negligible benefit to the marines (scouts excepted)
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• Imperial Fists INF units within bunkers purchased as part of their force gain reinforced armour, this replaces the 3+ bunker save
[Again I guess why? Scouts are actually worse off... Can't see the rational as to why they would use them differently to say siegemasters. Also no benifit to terminators. It is a rare joy to get a 3+ save with them
]
scouts are a bit worse off, although they gain a save against MW, which given the increasing prevalence of which, is quite nice to have.... bunkers give little benefit to marines, a 3+ armour save is only a slight improvement in survivability to them, guard in bunkers are excellent as they go from no save to 3+ so need about 3 times as many hits to kill, Marines needed something much better than a +1 to their save to justify ever taking bunkers, in the test games we played, bunkers were essentially worthless.... it might be worth making them into a 3+ save AND reinforced at the model's armour value, so marines get 3+/4+ and scouts 3+/5+ which prevents scouts ending up with a worse save, however I didn't want to go overboard at this point...
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• Imperial Fists formations may replace their 'plus transport' with 125cm² of minefields or razor wire and 2 bunkers for free
[Would delete and replace with the above. Also seems to contradict the existing rule of always being able to cross an obsticle with a 5cm cautious move.]
slowing the enemy down is a good effect of fortifications too....
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• An Imperial Fists army may start the game with one garrison formation on overwatch for every full 1000 points, with a minimum of two
[Would just axe, with the discounts and stuff the list should be able to encourage this without mandating it.]
I think it helps with all the platforms, they should start on overwatch or they end up destroyed really quickly, but you want other formations on OW too.... haven't found it a problem and really helps with the dug-in siege theme
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Special rule – Automaton
• Units with the 'automaton' rule may only use the following orders: Marshall, Overwatch, Sustain Fire
[Why have this rule? Is it just to stop them firing if they fail to activate? Being move zero it seems unnessecary. What happens if an allied war engine picks them up, they cannot exit unless it is part of a marshall or the WE engages? Yes no WE in the list that can transport, but you might ally with another in a multiplayer game. Seems simpler to leave them as move zero and let them do what they like...]
yeah I felt that having them take blast markers and shoot anyway was a bit too smart, on the allied war engine bit, the platforms aren't labelled as being transportable, so unless your ally has some houserule transport I don't see this as a problem, plus normally I think to avoid bending the rules, generally people would say that allied forces can't use each others transports....
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• Units with the ‘automaton’ rule may only contest objectives unless part of a formation containing units without the automaton rule
yup that's it, so the tarantulas in the bastion formation can claim objectives, which matters when checking for DTF.....
hope this answers your questions about why I've made the decisions I have
