Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 250 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 17  Next

Imperial Fists

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Castellum descriptions could be tidied up by the following:

replace the 'plus transport' of one formation in the army with one Castellum
stronghold

Maybe put this in the IF Transport special rule instead?

0-1 Castellum stronghold - replaces a single objective marker in the marine player's half
Could be the description in the army list instead?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:01 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:55 pm
Posts: 230
Location: New York, NY
The firepower value on the Fellblade's demolisher is missing the AT value, while you're at it :)

Now that's out of the way, at first glance I like the look of it. Definitely a ground-pounding siege army that could fight offensively or defensively (vanilla list and Raven Guard list do a good job of representing planetary assault forces pretty well anyhow, imo). Taking out marine aircraft in exchange for Achilles, thunderfires, and centurions goes a long way on its own toward distinguishing the feel and likely formation composition compared to existing lists.

_________________
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/armiger84/?hl=en

My General Modelling Blog: http://armiger84.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5602
Location: Bristol
Good work :) Some feedback though:

You forgot to add the disrupt OR ignore cover to the Thunderfire on the stronghold. The stats and that for it sound fine, but please can you rename the Castellum Stronghold to something generic like 'Imperial Fist Stronghold' or something along those lines? The Castellum is a specific model of drop-fortress and your armaments are nothing like those a Castellum has. Again keep the same stats but the AA laser should also be renamed an 'Icarus Lascannon' – that's the name for the AA only lascannon that comes with various 40k buildings. A defence laser is a much larger and more powerful AA weapon found on the Imperator Titan (with AA4+ TK(D3)).

Good to see Centurions. I'm fine with 4+ CC for the Assault Centurion, they are pretty clunky. Given that they have siege drills that are specifically designed for breaking through the walls of bunkers, buildings, ect maybe it's extra CC MW attack could also have ignore cover? It would specialise the unit more for what is meant to be it's particular role.

The Land Raider Achilles is better than other Land Raiders and should cost more – Frogbear had them as a +25 point upgrade on top of the cost of Land Raiders (and in lists where there is air transport for them +50 on top is probably appropriate). The Achilles should have an invulnerable save too. The tank has considerably thicker armour than other Land Raiders along with fancy nano protection - “layer upon layer of ancient electromagnetic incantations and ferromantic computational algorithms are etched into each part of the structure at a microscopic level using the most secret arts available to the Adeptus Mechanicus. The resulting armour is almost impossible to harm through the use of projected energy weapons, such as laser weaponry.” It's considerably harder to kill in it's 40k rules and it was discussed a lot when the Achilles came out and agreed that the tank deserved to have an invulnerable save (some were even arguing for 3+ reinforced but most people thought this a step too far) and it has an invulnerable save in Frogbear's IF list (as per the proper pdf for the list, it got missed out in the Compendium in one of the many typos/errors when putting it together). The tank is also used in a couple of other epic lists with invulnerable save and for consistency it should have it here.

Good to see the heavy WE version of the Marauder here as in the DkoK list. I really think it should cost 175 though. It's borderline too cheap in the DKoK list, but acceptable due to poor strategy rating and there being so many other artillery options in the list. With strategy rating 5 and it being worth more in a list without alpha strike options it should cost a little more.
How many troops can the bunkers hold? 3? Maybe it should specify. It says you get 50cm of trenches but doesn't say how much razorwire you get?

I still think Assault Terminators are worth 350 not 325, the extra invulnerable save and 0.83 extra MW hits (if they have a character with them) over normal Terminators seems as good as the lost shooting to me. I plan to run Assault Terminators instead in the Black Templars list too, so I guess we can both try them and see.

One last thing: the LR Crusader should have CC5+ not 6+. Both it and the Redeemer do, due to short ranged grenade launchers either side of the front ramp. It's used in multiple other lists that have it as 5+.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:00 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
thanks for the feedback, I'll edit the lists with the missing info when I get the chance (today hopefully)

regarding the Achilles, it is probably a bit better than a land raider, however I think land raiders are a little bit expensive, coming in at a massive 81.25 points per tank in a standard formation.... I'd like them tested as a straight swap at the moment, if everyone finds them to be significantly better than regular land raiders, then we can look into upgrades, 25 points each is very expensive, I would think twice about paying over 100 points for a single AV, good as it is

on the CC value, I didn't think it had the frag plates which the crusader/redeemer has, they certainly don't look the same, and it fits the background of having super-duper armour.... not sold on the invulnerable save, while the armour is certainly better, I'm not sure it's deserving of an invulnerable save.... that means it can soak up hits from volcano cannons and deathstrikes which IMO is a bit too good, if we can keep the LR crusader at 25cm move even though it's meant to be slower than a regular LR, I think 4+ RA is good enough for the achilles and helps the cost runaway issue

unless of course there are other lists using it and under the NetEA ideals I should be matching the stats to all the other lists?

I'll rename the castellum stronghold as a generic 'drop fortress' or similar

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:03 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
also I'm sticking to 325 for the assault terminators for now, their complete lack of FF and vulnerability to being clipped as well as the reduced transport options justifies the lower points value IMO, in a list with thawks they would be significantly more useful and probably worth 350, however from a list-synergy POV I think they are fine at 325.... I'm going to try them out rigorously over the coming weeks however and we'll see

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:05 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
bunkers can hold 3, I thought I'd added that to the 'capacity' column? if not I'll sort it

also it's 50cm of trenches OR razor wire, will clarify this too

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
kyussinchains wrote:
I'll rename the castellum stronghold as a generic 'drop fortress' or similar

Pleeeeease don't call it a drop fortress! :D


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:55 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
Dobbsy wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
I'll rename the castellum stronghold as a generic 'drop fortress' or similar

Pleeeeease don't call it a drop fortress! :D


'Dobbsy's playhouse' it is then... :D

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
:D I think Bastion sounds good personally ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:52 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
Glyn, just realised you were talking about the CC value of the crusader, that is meant to be 5+, oversight on my part there....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9652
Location: Manalapan, FL
Please keep the IS on the Achilles. Its a pretty balanced unit as is. If you need to change then it should get renamed IF Land Raider Achilles :) Its currently in the old IF list, Siege Vanguard, and SoI.

I'm excited to play the Fortress, Dobbsy Patter ;)

edit: NM. I thought that the Achilles was in the SoI list as well (they've got terminus ultra in the AoS which I was confused with). Its only experimental at this time

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
The Achilles had limited playtest in the Siege Vanguard List.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:42 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
And not to dismiss all the work that has come before, but I'd like them tested as they are for now, I think we're getting a little concerned with representing all the 40k idiosyncracies over game balance, if they're crying out for an invulnerable save then it will become apparent with testing, also it's an easy thing to drop to justify them at a more sensible price....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:43 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6355
Location: Leicester UK
okay corrected some stuff in the docs in the OP, there's probably more I'm sure ;)

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists version 0.1
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:53 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5602
Location: Bristol
kyussinchains wrote:
not sold on the invulnerable save, while the armour is certainly better, I'm not sure it's deserving of an invulnerable save.... that means it can soak up hits from volcano cannons and deathstrikes which IMO is a bit too good...unless of course there are other lists using it and under the NetEA ideals I should be matching the stats to all the other lists?

The Achilles is in the Siege Assault Vanguard (SM siege attacker list) which is in the Compendium and has seen some playtesting and it was tested a load in the old IF list. It's also in my Minotaurs army list from ages ago, though this hasn't seen any testing. I think you should really leave the unit as is.

The Achilles was discussed extensively in the past and most people wanted something to represent it's considerable extra toughness and invulnerable save is just the best fit we have. Frogbear initially didn't have the Achilles with invulnerable save, but got persuaded to. If a SM Captain can rarely survive a Deathstrike to the face in epic, or, heck, even an Eldar War Walker, then it's feasible the Achilles could. It's armour is specially designed to resist heat and laser weapons afterall.

Why is the Achilles only available in a LR formation at the moment though? Is this a mistake? It has a transport capacity of 1 and could make a good upgrade for a Tactical or Devestator formation.

I'd just call it a fortress or a stronghold, doesn't particularly need to be a drop fortress, the Fists could well have built it one the planet. Don't call it a Bastion as again this is a specific building in 40k that this doesn't match.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 250 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 17  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net