Fair enough.


I think I prefer the 75pt/FF5+ version mentioned often in this thread.


50pts and Walker ability and I would consider using Vindicators. Any more points than that and I just wouldn't take them.

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So far:

- Tornado change unanimously accepted.

- 9 in favour of making Land Raiders 75pts, 1 partially in favour, and 2 against.

- 10 in favour of making Vindicators 50pts with Walker (and presuambly 25cm speed, and a cheaper cost for the formation such as 225pts), 1 in favour of making Vindicators 50pts without Walker, and 1 against.


Please tell me if I counted that wrong.

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You might add me to the majority votes there if you like.

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If I wasn't entirely clear, I'm okay with Walker or no Walker as long as vindicators go down to 50 apiece.

And as I only really dealt with (2), put me down for an agree for (1) free change, and for (3), 50pts and Walker. I still won't take them, but somebody might.

Morgan Vening

I have updated the post accordingly.

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+1 to making LRs 75 and Vindicators 50 with walker.

1. Yes.
2. 75 points.
3. 50 points, with or without walker. Still won't take them but any movement towards something more sensible is better.

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Would it not be more prudent to ask why a minority would not want the changes the majority are asking for?

The other way seems daft to me at least.

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Well the case could be made that people are simply asking for buffs to their favorite army.

Though it would be a really idiotic case.

My reasoning: for Tornados the price increase is fiddly and I think history has shown that the upgrade is really not useful enough to warrant a points increase of all things.

Land Raiders are obviously rather overpriced at 100 but 85 is also a very fiddly cost. So instead of putting them at 85 and FF 4+ it's more convenient to have them at 75 with FF 5+.

Vindicators, well, everything is clear about them I think

I think everybody's reasoning is pretty straightforwards, and along the lines of reasoning posted by vytzka; I'm sure you're well aware of my own reasoning so I shall not repeat it again.

Notably, 80-100% of people are agreeing on each issue, which almost never happens.

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Yup. I agree with vytzka on Tornado and Land Raider regards fiddly bits.

But the main reason, for all three, is that I don't believe the current prices are justified. Even at the free/75/50, I don't see myself going "Yeah, I'll definitely be taking them!". But at their current 10/85/75 costs, it's a case of not even being considered.

MW Speeders- Simply aren't inferior, at the new change. Range isn't really an issue, and the MW FF makes up for that IMO. The two shots vs infantry doesn't make up for the single shot AT when lack of save comes in.

Land Raiders- Already discussed. But from an army creation purpose, I have the option of making Devastators heavy-mechanized for up to 400pts, or Terminators for 750. Neither, even with the change, are close to an automatic choice.

Vindicators- Discussed infinitum. They are so overpriced, that even a tweak like Walker isn't going to see them used. Even at the suggested new price, I can't see myself ever using them. Assault don't benefit. Terminators don't benefit. Land Raiders, Predators and Tacticals are marginal, but all suffer from a case of "Does the inclusion of Vindicators boost the effectiveness of the formation at a level equal to the points spent?". For me, Maybe, Possibly, and Not. At 75, No, No, and No.

Regarding the possibility of buffs for my favourite, I recently played Marines (Apocrypha list), which is my first game with Marines in 15-20? games. Whereas Marines are my opponents maybe 25%+ of the time. I have no problem facing an army utilising the above changes, as it makes them more likely to consider a non-air assault army.

Morgan Vening

And the counter point is that the 75pt Land Raider doesn't require a FF stat change, and is being consistently shown in the most competative Epic environment (the EpicUK tournaments) not to be game-breaking.

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