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'All Arms' Marine list

 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:54 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 29 May 2009, 19:44 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 29 May 2009, 19:05 )

*snip army list*

Would you seriously use that list in a tournament environment?

10 activations of Space Marines, enough air cover to shoot down most threats, including the obligatory Warhound & Terminators for deep strike/taking out enemy war engines in CC... Predators & Land Raiders to tackle enemy armour, Devestators with two shooty dreadnoughts on overwatch...

...it'd probably be better than my standard IG list. :)




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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:21 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 29 May 2009, 19:51 )

A 2 Dev, 4 Dread, Vindi air group is a good mix of ranged fire and FF ability, allowing some tactical flexibility.  Under your list it would drop 200 points.  So, that's a full-on air assault list that easily keeps pace with your intended ground pounder discount.

Notably it's an air drop group that would be literally rubbish under the Official, ERC or EpicUK points costs.

That air group you post is *not* worth 1350/1300pts as it has 275pts of Vindicators & 200pts of Dreadnoughts (simply wasted points IMHO), but that's what the Official/ERC list would charge you.

Why are dreadnoughts a poor choice for air assaults?  That's usually one of the roles people specify as being reasonable for them.  Isn't that the reason they were included in the "lower unit cost, higher air trans cost" list?

So, under this proposal, a previously rubbish choice starts to look attractive?

I vehemently disagree that air dropping Vindicators is rubbish.  Being dropped in mitigates all the Vindis' weaknesses with respect to speed and range.

They are actually pretty good for air assault, almost as good as Devastators, anyway.  They cost about the same as Devastators and have comparable FF (4+, IC v 3+) and the same armor so in an assault the deciding factor on which is better is whether the target has a cover save.

Vindi shooting in a land/shoot is comparable to the Devs as well and is notably better if the target is in cover (Devs halve their average hits with a -1 mod).   While they have the same armor value, the Vindis are AVs, which means they are actually tougher versus most fire.  They are faster as well for any follow on action.  Once in the thick of things, that makes up for the areas where Devs are better.

If Vindicators are "rubbish" for air assaults, then so are Devastators.

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:31 pm 
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I vehemently disagree that air dropping Vindicators is rubbish.  Being dropped in mitigates all the Vindis' weaknesses with respect to speed and range.

I disagree, they're still poor at shooting, average for Firefights.

They are actually pretty good for air assault, almost as good as Devastators, anyway.  They cost about the same as Devastators and have comparable FF (4+, IC v 3+) and the same armor so in an assault the deciding factor on which is better is whether the target has a cover save.
Adding ignore cover to the firefight is one of the ERC's 3/4 stat mods in attempting to balance it. In the stock book it doesn't have ignore cover in a Firefight.

This list assumes the base stats of Vindicators remain unchanged.

Vindi shooting in a land/shoot is comparable to the Devs as well and is notably better if the target is in cover (Devs halve their average hits with a -1 mod).   While they have the same armor value, the Vindis are AVs, which means they are actually tougher versus most fire.
Not really, because Devestators invariably have a -1 to-hit available, which is much harder to achieve for vehicles. Additionally land-based Devestators will have Rhinos with them, with all the consequent benefits.

If Vindicators are "rubbish" for air assaults, then so are Devastators.
Devestators have better Firefight, for the most part better ranged shooting, and under all lists except this one are cheaper too.

I cannot remember ever seeing someone take a Vindicator formation in any Codex Marine army list in battle for anything other than a futile joke, let alone try and air assault with one.

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 29 May 2009, 22:03 )

I think you need a lot more experience using marines and fighting against marines before you can objectively do this.

I've played my Marines more than my IG. My IG are just my tournament army because they're my best painted one.

Its a good idea but I think you have far too many misconceptions about what can be done and has been done successfully whith what is the most flexible list in the game.

Most inflexible surely, if you want to be competetive.

All that flexibility doesn't mean anything if most of it is inferior.

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:30 pm 
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I found the core problem with mud marines is manoeuvrability. You have very expensive troops, in very poor transports. I'm not that happy with a straight points cut as I would think stuff like Templars or Space Wolves would be the numbers guys.
The three solutions to this are the current official list, where you use air assaults and warhounds to tie up the enemy giving the guys in rhinos a chance to get where they are going, the Scion list, which uses heavier armour on the transport backed up with marine tanks, and the Salamander list, which allows redundancy and heavier transports.
As pointed out they don't use any odd chapter specific stuff, just highlight certain tactics the chapters are renowned for, so could be painted any colour.
I don't have a pdf reader yet but I'm guessing that E&C's suggestions are similar to the ones in the past with air transports going up and troops coming down? There are a few holes that neal usually points out doing that, but its a start if anyone wishes to try and find an alternative way and compensate for the rhino problem with numbers/an extra activation or two.

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:35 pm 
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I don't have a pdf reader yet but I'm guessing that E&C's suggestions are similar to the ones in the past with air transports going up and troops coming down?


Plus a points cut for some tank formations too (especially Vindicators).

All in all as long as a standard tournament list doesn't change by too many points, I can't see the point in not doing it, as that extra activation or two may not level the playing field, but will help the poor mud marines a little.

Better than nothing, is my thought...

*shrug*

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Actually now im tempted to write a Siege themed Imperial Fist armylist....but i bet it wouldn't work right  :laugh:

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:46 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 29 May 2009, 21:31 )

Adding ignore cover to the firefight is one of the ERC's 3/4 stat mods in attempting to balance it. In the stock book it doesn't have ignore cover in a Firefight.

My bad.  I was thinking it was IC on both.

I disagree with several points in your assessment, but I don't see much profit in dissecting it.

I cannot remember ever seeing someone take a Vindicator formation in any Codex Marine army list in battle for anything other than a futile joke, let alone try and air assault with one.


TRC has used SM Armor in LCs and reported good results.  Based on his comments, I have the impression that he's done it quite a bit.

Vindicators are going to be better in the initial assault than Predators, even if they aren't as good in follow on action.

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:47 pm 
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Anyways, the list is out there (because Chroma asked for it otherwise I wouldn't have posted it)

if any one does use it, have fun!

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 Post subject: 'All Arms' Marine list
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:43 pm 
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(tip-toeing into the debate)

Ok, so the nub of the argument is that 'mud' marines need to be slightly beefed up in some way to balance out their relative inability to concentrate an attack on a single point?

I may be way out of line here, but it sounds as though the issue actually revolves around the relative size and mobility of the various units and how they are actually used. So I am in the camp that 'mud' marines ain't broke, though perhaps they are sub-optimal in certain circumstances.

The whole point of the 'air assault' army is that it can deploy a significant attack on a flank of the opponents line, destroying or disabling the enemy formations there while forcing the enemy to move other formations to meet the threat, potentially weakening return fire in the process. In essence, this strategy relies upon pushing the enemy off-balance and forcing un-coordinated responses.

As TRC says, the 'ground-pounder' army must rely on different tactics, perhaps diversionary forces used to pin and distract the enemy while the bulk of the army moves rapidly into position, or flank attacks etc. The relative weakness of marine armour combined with their small numbers means that they are less suited to frontal assaults and attition based warfare.

I think I would prefer to see something that reflects the much vaunted flexibility of the marines rather than changing points around. So, a really wild suggestion might be that the player can choose slightly different formation sizes for the same points, or buy an extra unit as an upgrade, where the larger size may not be air-dropped. eg
  • 300 tacticals        (air) 6x units      (ground) 7x units
  • 250 Devastators  (air) 4x units      (ground) 5x units
  • 300 Predators      (air) 4x units     (ground) upgrade +1 unit 50 points
  • 350 Land Raiders (air) 4x units     (ground) upgrade +1 unit 75 points  
Note, the definition of a "ground" army would be that there were no THawks or space cruisers in the list. Also, I do not think you need to do much more.

Neal's points on the Dreadnoughts are spot on IMO, and ably demonstrate the point that certain units and formations have optimal and often restricted tactics - so add Dreadnoughts to formations that will air-assault or hold positions; air-drop Vindies to strenghten an assault on a known strong-point etc. (Indeed the main reason why Vindies are rarely used is that they are very specialist, and most people play 'blind' so cannot anticipate the situations where they would be appropriate).

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