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Changing marine armour
Change to RA 21%  21%  [ 11 ]
Drop points (what we are doing) 79%  79%  [ 42 ]
Total votes : 53

Changing marine armour
Magarch
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:36 pm 
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I think the trouble is more about Macro-Weapons being too easy to be filled in an army. It's particularly true for the Titan heavy army lists. Maybe the current ones are too permissive about this ?

About variable RA, well...No. The core rules about that aren't bad, in fact...It's just some profiles that make trouble. Adding rules like this is dangerous, because it could be solved just by changing the view about some units (why not a Leman Russ with Reinforced Armor 5+, after all ?).
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:15 pm 
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I think used sparingly a variable save would be better. Just limit the re-rolls as much as possible! (Of course we should just move to d12's.)

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:23 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 05 2008,13:15)
QUOTE
(Of course we should just move to d12's.)

I'm all for that.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:38 pm 
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Even without Macro Weapons being taken into account, the gulf between leman russ and everything else is huge.

Rhino: 1/3
Predator: 1/2
Russ: 3/4

The Russ is enormously durable compared with other tanks.
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Soren
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:52 am 
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Make ?m cheaper,  forget the rest.

It?s like a spiral......new armies get lot?s of MW so we need more RA. Both a no go.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:53 am 
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Soren, I like your style, but fear that price revisions of the amount you are implying would be equally unacceptable.

Given the Russ is 65 points and the Rhino is generally viewed as 10-15, that puts the Pred somwehere around 40-50 points, or 160-200 per formation. Even if they accepted this, I cannot see people using the RA unit as the measure for all units - it would unbalance everything else.

In reality, Magarch has the right idea:- we need to stop MW creep, so reducing the need for RA - though the suggestion for variable armour would also help reduce the gulf between the resilience of various types of tank / WE.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:32 pm 
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Once again: this has always been an issue, the first thing I noticed when picking up the rulebook and going "hmm, that's odd". This is not a response to MW creep, this is just odd, and it's always been odd.
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Magarch
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:40 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 06 2008,15:32)
QUOTE
Once again: this has always been an issue, the first thing I noticed when picking up the rulebook and going "hmm, that's odd". This is not a response to MW creep, this is just odd, and it's always been odd.

Odd ? Guess you're talking in comparison with W40k game system. Well, if that's the case, it's a very old issue. I believe the two have different views about the same units, so I don't mind if the profiles aren't really the same in spirit. In fact, I think it's a good thing.
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:52 am 
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Well, anyone got the older editions of Epic and care to post comparisons of armour between say the Land raider and the predator?
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Soren
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:29 am 
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@Ginger: I disagree.. Even while marine Armor die in droves when under heavy fire, their ATSKNF keeps them fighting even with some losses. Therefor I would say about 250 for 4 Preds we cannot be wrong. (this would be a 50pts discount) More imortant for me is to keep the price for the formation high, but lower the price for upgrades, so we can compensate the higher "stock-price" for the formation (to counter popcorn Marine armies, as we all know). So make em 50pts upgrade, we all would be fine (and more important ALLOW them more preds. 4 is just kiddy.)

With this solution I would get 5 Preds for 300. This would be a plus 25% in unit siye but just a bit more in combat efficiency because of the marine ATSKNF rule.

bla.....enough said. Its an issue known for years (back to my first epic game where i lost my first preds to IG INFANTRY)

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CAL001
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:57 am 
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I think that we have a result in this thread. For each time someone say yes to RA the gap between it and points costings gets bigger. Chris I think the answer is clear.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:21 pm 
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It's probably after the polls have closed, but mark me for points drop.

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scarik
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:26 am 
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Preds and Pred variants should have always been 5+RA.

A points drop just results in more Space Marines being on the table and with 1000 fighters per chapter its silly that you need to send 100-200 to any fight.

However they also shouldn't be a stand and shoot army so 4+RA is right out for anything but Land Raiders.

Did the awful Vindicator ever get fixed?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Changing marine armour
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:12 pm 
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I think that preds should have a 5+RA save, heck every races MBT shoiuld start out as with a 5+RA save and it should become better if wareented (such as russes and LR).

MBTs (even the light MBTs of the marines and Orks) should have some staying power.

I know that pred formations are "cheep" compared to russ companies or SHT companies, but it is really annoying when they get wiped out in a single salvo, losing me an activation.

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