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Titan hammer formations

 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:26 am 
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I love the images for this but am unsure how it would work in EA, for House rules, perfect but Tournament I think overpowering.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:29 pm 
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(rpr @ Dec. 19 2007,09:44)
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If something like this is needed, I would make them CC 2+, inv. save and no FF/ranged attacks
(grenades have quite short range after all). The a bit better storm hammer would be reflected by upped CC, storm shield as inv. save. Could then be a bit cheaper, like 275 for 4.

As someone mentioned earlier the terminators are used in 90% of the cases to whack the crap out of the enemy in CC. Changing their CC from 3+ to 2+ and effectively raising their CC by 100% and when a regular termie would have a relative power of 1.0, these would have 1.8 ((1.0 - 0.1) * 2). With inv save they would get extra 1/6 * 0.25 (maybe 1/6 * 0.30 with all the macros out there). They're 1.85 times as powerful as regular termies are and they should cost maybe 40% more (assuming 2.0x power would be sqrt(2.0) cost). So when regulars cost 325 these should cost 450. With the 0-1 limitation it might be only 425. Even if the ratio between CC and FF/shooting wouldn't be 90%, say 67% it would still mean that the new termies would have to cost 50 to 75 points more than the regular ones. The ultimate balance would have to be tested out of course but it is slightly easier when you scale the new units to existing units instead of randomly adding new stuff..

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Basically, this formation isn't really needed and is stupid from a fluff point of view anyway.

I would definately vote no.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:35 pm 
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Could be fun for scenarios, though.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:43 pm 
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You could play epic top trumps. play the game but have a series of cards that can do x or neutralise y. Titanbasher squads could either magically appear next to a titan when you play the card at the start of a turn, or do something else equally dramatic, what in turn can be countered by something else etc.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:04 pm 
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(Crabowl @ Dec. 19 2007,11:29)
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(rpr @ Dec. 19 2007,09:44)
QUOTE
If something like this is needed, I would make them CC 2+, inv. save and no FF/ranged attacks
(grenades have quite short range after all). The a bit better storm hammer would be reflected by upped CC, storm shield as inv. save. Could then be a bit cheaper, like 275 for 4.

As someone mentioned earlier the terminators are used in 90% of the cases to whack the crap out of the enemy in CC. Changing their CC from 3+ to 2+ and effectively raising their CC by 100% and when a regular termie would have a relative power of 1.0, these would have 1.8 ((1.0 - 0.1) * 2). With inv save they would get extra 1/6 * 0.25 (maybe 1/6 * 0.30 with all the macros out there). They're 1.85 times as powerful as regular termies are and they should cost maybe 40% more (assuming 2.0x power would be sqrt(2.0) cost). So when regulars cost 325 these should cost 450. With the 0-1 limitation it might be only 425. Even if the ratio between CC and FF/shooting wouldn't be 90%, say 67% it would still mean that the new termies would have to cost 50 to 75 points more than the regular ones. The ultimate balance would have to be tested out of course but it is slightly easier when you scale the new units to existing units instead of randomly adding new stuff..

I'm confused Crabowl.  Are you saying that a unit with a 20% better to hit, an Inv save and a 4% better save (vs normal attacks)but no ranged of FF ability is worth more than one with ranged and FF ability.

Sure if they get into base contact they will inflict an extra 0.66 MW (0.86 if they have a character) hits and an extra 0.66 normal hits, but after that they are a 15cm speed CC formation and your opponent will be mad to let them with 15cm of a second formation.

As for assault being the termies ain job, I use their assault cannons quite often, especailly if they are mounted in land raiders, or my favourite.  When they fail an engage order when facing the reversing lights of a SHT company.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:56 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Dec. 19 2007,13:04)
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I'm confused Crabowl. ?Are you saying that a unit with a 20% better to hit, an Inv save and a 4% better save (vs normal attacks)but no ranged of FF ability is worth more than one with ranged and FF ability.

Sure if they get into base contact they will inflict an extra 0.66 MW (0.86 if they have a character) hits and an extra 0.66 normal hits, but after that they are a 15cm speed CC formation and your opponent will be mad to let them with 15cm of a second formation.

As for assault being the termies ain job, I use their assault cannons quite often, especailly if they are mounted in land raiders, or my favourite. ?When they fail an engage order when facing the reversing lights of a SHT company.

You're right that I got the 100% wrong there, was thinking it the wrong way (missing half the time compared to 3+ doesn't mean 100% increase, silly me). The CC increase is (5/6)/(4/6)=1.25=25%. Depending how much FF/shooting is used the cost for a unit like that and invu would be pretty much the same as regular termies. Might be even -25 because they become specialized but less than that no way (at least without some playtesting).

I haven't heard anyone ever using termies with land raiders but the other one happens all the time.

Oh and if someone would make one of these units, rpr's stats would be the way to go.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:08 pm 
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I think something like this would be cool for scenarios or campaigns... forms of play that really don't seem to see much light.

The EPIC rulebook has a page about it with some interesting ideas.  I think being inspired by the Apocalypse Datasheets to create such things is cool, even if they aren't for Tournament Scenario play.

An example from the rulebook:

Space Marine HQ Detachment
1 Tactical Marine unit with Supreme Commander and Chaplain
1 Tactical Marine unit with Librarian
1 Land Raider
2 Dreadnoughts

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:36 pm 
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(Markconz @ Dec. 18 2007,22:52)
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Does anyone else find the idea of thumping away at the feet of titans with big hammers just a little comical and ridiculous...?

A little comical? Try a lot comical.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:29 pm 
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I came up with thisone month ago. Look here for the latest incarnation. Chaos and Eldar are there too:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....99;st=0

I plan to do more of these datasheets for epic after christmas.





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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:19 pm 
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I like them all BL.  Though I might not give the titan hammers an assault cannon, just to make them very different from a normal termie formation.

I also like the vortex gernade being a CC weapon.  I was going to change my version to CC (still might).  Since gernades can't be thrown that far and a vortex gernade should have a better to hit than the current 6+.

The idea of an epic apocolypse book sounds fun.  Makes me want to buy the new FW book just to help start converting all of their datasheets into epic.

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:28 pm 
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I have both books. But they are 600km away from me. Around christmas i can lay my hands on them and start converting :)

The Titanhammer Terminators still have the option of one heavy weapon. In Wh40k this IS special because Terminator Assault Squads normally can't have heavy weapons. :)

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:05 am 
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Boys ... Boys ... stop this sillyness ! It's bad enough that some insist on putting close combat weapons on Titans - not in the L4SoTR !  Close Combat attacks against Titans  ... SM1 had a rule for that, but the Troops had a very small chance of doing damage. The damage was done by missles, demo, grenades, etc. And any rules that allow close combat weapons to be more powerful than a heavy ranged weapon is wrong ! :confuse:

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:09 am 
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Well the Dune 'knives and shield' argument does make some sort of sense to me, but still I'm finding myself in L4's camp on this one :D

"You want us to do what? Climb onto the foot somehow, while wearing terminator armour, haha, yeah and then what? Hit it with our hammers...  Ok wait... are you being serious?"

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 Post subject: Titan hammer formations
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:04 am 
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Now maybe place (large) explosive charges ... still kind of a an "unneeded" risk ...  I say again - Shoot'm !!!!! :O

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