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Space Wolves 2.1+

 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:29 am 
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OK here's the updated proposal list with new wording for the Hero etc. Hopefully the wording works but if there's any glaring problems please let me know. There's always the chance I missed something.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:48 am 
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I would recommend 50pt vindicators and free Land Speeder Tornados.

Both are accepted/recommended by the ERC.

Via your wording, you're allowed to add the "Sniper" upgrade ability to Razorbacks.
No Rhinos for scouts?

-----

I like the list structure a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Like the structure too :)

So a Great Company (still don't like this name, hiow about Battle Pack?) can have 3 Heroes in total?
No extra tanks apart of the Hunter for tank formations?

And for the different heros how about this?
Great Wolf/ Wolf Lord = Supreme Commander = Supreme Commander, Invulnerable Save, CC+1MWEA
Rune Priest = Librarian = Leader, Invulnerable Save, CC and FF +1MWEA
Wolf Priest = Chaplain = Inspiring, Leader, Invulnerable Save, CC+1MWEA
Wolf Guard Hero = Captain = Commander, Leader, Invulnerable Save, CC and FF +1MWEA
Wolf Guard Battle Leader = Leader, CC+1EA

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:26 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Like the structure too :)

So a Great Company (still don't like this name, hiow about Battle Pack?) can have 3 Heroes in total?
No extra tanks apart of the Hunter for tank formations?

And for the different heros how about this?
Great Wolf/ Wolf Lord = Supreme Commander = Supreme Commander, Invulnerable Save, CC+1MWEA
Rune Priest = Librarian = Leader, Invulnerable Save, CC and FF +1MWEA
Wolf Priest = Chaplain = Inspiring, Leader, Invulnerable Save, CC+1MWEA
Wolf Guard Hero = Captain = Commander, Leader, Invulnerable Save, CC and FF +1MWEA
Wolf Guard Battle Leader = Leader, CC+1EA

I also like the structure, but am very unsure about having three leaders in the Great company (or what ever you want to call it). This is going to make large formations that are very hard to suppress or break - is that the intention?

So adapting BL's comments slightly, I would prefer the Wolf Guard Battle Leader = Commander, CC+1EA


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:53 am 
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AAaargh! Yes there should be a maximum of two leaders for a Great Company. I see the wording issue now. I need to elaborate that there's 2 Heroes maximum including the WGBL. I knew I'd miss things.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader is essentially a Captain so Commander CC EA+1. I'm going to stick with the archetypes of commanders. So:
Rune Priest = same as Librarian (with a differently named Psychic attack for fluffiness)
Wolf Priest = same as Chaplain
WGBL = same as Captain/SC upgraded

I'm leaving the Wolf Lord as an upgrade as I would prefer the option to be available to the Venerable Dreadnought to be SC if you want (it has fearless and RA so Inv save as well is OTT) and the WGBL already has an Inv save.

50 point Vindicators was an oversight. Oops! I'll correct that the Tornadoes and the sniper wording. Thanks E&C. I think the RBs were a copy and paste error. Wolf Scouts teleport!

Not sure why, but the Thunderhawk and Landing Craft points changes didn't go in there. So they're supposed to be 225 and 375 respectively.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:26 am 
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Dobbsy and Hena if there are no objections I am going to put on a Battle this weekend Ork Horde vs Space Wolves (Standard GT Scenario) using the Space Wolves Army List 5 posted above. I will set this up so I can do a full report with battle maps, commentary, and an AABS (After Action Bull Session) from observers, players, and the judge/moderator/map taker (me). Maybe even some pics, if I can figure out how to use my damn phone camera. Don't expect too much as we will be using my grided table so the maps I create can be accurate, dare say this table doesn't photogtraph too well. I built it for accuracy not looks. I can do PDFs Now hurray (Welcome to the 21st Century Jaldon :D )

Our best Marine Player (Jesse) will be commanding the Space Wolves and our best Ork Player (Richard) will be shoving the greenskins around (The poor fools agreed to do it already). Jesse may be just a little behind the eight ball here as he commands both Ultra Marines and Black Templars and just got the Space Wolves list today (He will be using my Space Wolves for the battle, yes I have them, White Scars (Under the Name Savage Souls), and Dark Angels.

Expect the full report sometime next week, ok?

Greater Wolf Pack......
Great Wolf Pack.......
Wolf Hunter Pack........
Grey Wolf Pack...........
Dire Wolf Pack...........
The Flying Burrito Brothers Grey Hunter Horde...........
Garbonzo Bean Shop and Emporium Raider Pack.........................
Philosophy Proffessor Hunter Pack of Wallamaloo (Eh Bruce)..............

Cheers All Jaldon


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:24 am 
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Hi Jaldon
That'd be great! :) Let me get the adjustments just recently mentioned and the unit stats reference sheet up first so you know what units have what. I'll do that tonight.

While I do love the "Flying Burrito Brothers Grey Hunter Horde" idea, let's just go with Great Company for now :D

Blacklegion - I could be swayed to call it just "Wolf Pack" (gives a nice "hunting" German U-boat/warlike nature to itand it can also contain the actual Wolf Lord...) but I'd like other Space Wolves officianados comments first. Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:32 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
AAaargh! Yes there should be a maximum of two leaders for a Great Company. I see the wording issue now. I need to elaborate that there's 2 Heroes maximum including the WGBL. I knew I'd miss things.
In which case, all you need to do is change the wording for the Hero upgrade to become becomes a single character per the Marine Codex as you have already separated the Wolf Lord upgrade out.

So perhaps the following works?

Hero
Add a Hero to a unit in the formation that does not already contain a character. A Great Company may only have one of each Hero type.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Rune Priest or Wolf Priest +50 points
Fenrisian Wolves - You may add a Close Combat Extra Attack (+1) to a unit containing a Hero +15 points

0-1 Wolf Lord
Add the Supreme Commander ability to either a Wolf Guard Battle Leader or a Venerable Dreadnought
+50 points






"simples" as they say over here :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:41 am 
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KK Dobbsy I'll get the updated list to Jesse as soon as I get it


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Ok I worded the Hero listing just ever-so slightly differently just to make it clear - geez I hope it's clear ::)

Anyhow here's the list with the adjustments. Should I just release this as 2.2 instead of these proposal lists?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Jaldon - here is the reference sheet.

Anyone combing through this will notice I've changed the Long Fangs weaponry to give them a shorter-ranged "close range/support" feel. At the moment it's just 3x heavy weapons (non-specific). I know some don't like that idea but for the present it will do until we can decide - if needs be - what actual weapons should go into the Long Fangs data. We can also look at their overall cost as a formation then too. They can stay at 300 for now.

Cheers all!


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Hmm ok. To my understanding in the Space Wolves Codex a Wolf Guard Battle Leader is firstly a very long string of words ;D and secondly a regular Wolf Guard member attached to a Grey Hunter, Blood Claw, Swift Claw Bike, Wolf Scout or Long Fang pack.
Wolf Guard are an Elite choice in the Codex.
The Codex also mentions a Wolf Guard Hero which is very similar to the Wolf Lord apart from a few upgrade choiced and lesser profile stats.
With a equivalent to a Captain your Wolf Guard Battle Leader is more a Wolf Guard Hero.
Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are more of a Codex Veteran Sergeant with more wargear options.

So i recommend to change "Wolf Guard Battle Leader" to "Wolf Guard Hero" and change the first line of the "Great Company" from "6 Grey Hunter units and transport, plus 1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader" to "6 Grey Hunter units and transport, plus 1 Wolf Guard Hero character". The "character" is importand else people might believe it would be 6 units plus a 7th unit with a Hero.

And i like "Wolf Pack" as (Space) Vikings are seafarers too :) Ok they aren't u-boats ;D
Other ideas:
War Pack
Battle Pack
Alpha Pack
Apex Pack
Predator Pack

And do Fenrisian Wolves really warant an armour save of 5+? They have the same Wounds, Toughness and Armour as Orks in Wh40k which have a 6+ Save in Epic.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:02 am 
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Thanks Dobbsy I got it to Jesse

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:30 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:

And do Fenrisian Wolves really warant an armour save of 5+? They have the same Wounds, Toughness and Armour as Orks in Wh40k which have a 6+ Save in Epic.

This is definitely abstraction, but are Orks as agile and fast or stealthy/silent? It all evens out IMO. But hey, I'm open to the consensus on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.1+
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:11 am 
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A long, long, long time ago when Epic-A was very young a similar issue came up concerning 'mounted' units like bikes, cavalry and the like. We did mess around with keeping their armor saves at a par with WH40k. To make a long story short it was decided then to 'modify' the armor saves for these units because the sale of Epic-A is different.

Jervis basically said they have a better armor save because of their speed and mobility. That said what is important is that the formation work both in points and on the battlefield as would fit the performance and balance expected.

For example at one time Eldar Jet Bikes had a save of 5+, but it just didn't reflect their performance onthe game board so it increased to 4+

In this case I think 5+ seems reasonable for playtesting purposes at this tim.

Just my two cents

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