I say trial with FF3+, RA4+, Inv Save.

If it prove underpowered, then you have grounds from which to argue for an upgrade.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'm perfectly calm. You didn't like the way the AMTL list worked. I didn't like the way the AMTL list worked. I don't like predominantly fearless armies. Or predominantly skimmer armies in a universe where several factions are heavily close combat based. I just thought it was a little unfair to argue against Zombo, when I'm a lot pickier about what I am uninterested in playing against, as is pretty much everyone in our group.

You'll also note I said "others" with regards to Knights and 4+RA arguments. You need to stop reading hidden meaning into what I've said, and read what I said.


And as I said in my initial post, combatting problem areas/factions by making even more uber variants doesn't solve the problem. I'd rather see Living Metal modified down, the 3+ Daemon Prince gone (keep the winged one, give it invulnerable save, and explain the expanded move as "magic"), and something done about Holofields. But putting in a unit that makes standard weaponry even less effective just means when GW/Forgeworld release yet another similar thing, it just gets even worse.

Morgan Vening

i do not see how losing the transport slots on a tank formation which by its definition cannot transport anything anyway, can be claimed to be a disadvantage. (and for the record, the 40k achilles can still transport a combat squad)

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

That is probably because it does not effect you. If you lose something for the same cost, you should gain something in return. Whatever that is.

I will test with RA4+ and make a final decision on INV Save and how the unit is incorporated into the list

I don't think it needs further discussion.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

i own about 150 land raiders iirc, i think it effects me just a little bit...

what i'm saying, is if the core formation from which it is based on has a transport capacity that it is not able to use (due to being a nonWE formation of purely transport vehicles without anyone to ride in them) then a variant of this formation which does not have a transport capacity is in no way more hampered by such a loss. it has not lost any capability, it has not suffered more than the formation it was based upon, and does not deserve special consideration because of it. you're basically saying that your unit has given up nothing (or in this case, a rule it could not use, and thus nothing of any value) and thus deserve some sort of bonus.

if you're arguing that the regular land raider formation is overcosted, because it cannot use its transport capacity, then thats a seperate issue. but an achilles does not deserve a boost for losing access to a rule it could not use anyway.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

That is assuming that a formation is not made to use them as part of a formation...

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

yes. because for now all discussion about them has been about a formation of 4, or as an upgrade to one of a formation of 4.

and they can have a transport capacity of one stand. why is it in this age of a 7 page arguement about transfering a ridiculously overpowered rule in 40k into a ridiculously overpowered rule in epic, and how it needs to be the same because forgeworld are great, has the fact that the achilles can transport 5 marines been ignored?

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

It is exactly that, a discussion. It needs to move through stages and this is the end stage I guess.


Because I was highlighting it's possible use for future development lists. No alterior motive


...and many of the ideas proposed in the Chaos list you produced would not be considerred as such? I would think that you would understand the problems associated with trying to discuss such things when only certain atrtributes are talked about. Ridiculously powerful to what exactly - note, we have moved on significantly from page 5 so please do not bring up RA3+. It was conceded - no reason to go back to that.


No. Just not thought about for the IFs. It does not mean it will never be, it is just part of the development that it should come up now.

I am not sure what more there is to discuss as I have accepted the RA4+ and will look at what I am going to playtest and in what form. Rather than talk endlessley, I am prepared to place things into action. I am sure we can talk more from there.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

i thought that the whole point behind the achilles was that it had no real place in non IF lists, due to its incredibly rare "but we still want to be able to sell them to anyone" status. personally i say give it a single stand troop capacity, it cant use it, but the background has it, and unlike 'magical armour plates' its pretty hard to overlook five dudes in power armour sitting inside it...
i'm just saying, dont try to put the idea that it doesnt transport troops out there as though it was a concession or anything.

anyways, i'm not trying to keep harping on with the 3+ thing, i'm glad someone was able to convince you to drop that bit. its more that a design principle that seems to be followed of "well the forgeworld guys made it absurd, so our version should also be freakishly better than a regular land raider" which, as someone who thinks that the guys at forgeworld who write the rules for these things are either power-mad sales consultants, or are just plain foaming at the mouth insane, i am not keen on. i'm not sure it is any more deserving of a survivability boost in epic scale than a leman russ demolisher is over a regular one. but hey, lets give it a shot at this one and see what shakes out.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

Of course it should have a transport capacity.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

If it is underpowered with 4+ RA, inv save, FF3+ MW, then it should get a point decrease, not an upgrade !

FF3+ MW is already too much IMHO

I am leaning towards it:
a. being an upgrade to a Land Raider formation - replace x for x type of thing (maybe a max of 1-2 in a formation).
b. remaining at a 4+ FF MW
c. gaining INV Save

This should help with the 'rarity' aspect and provide a comparison base against the standard Land Raider through some play tests. I believe this will be a fair base to test from and appeal to most people. No doubt I will come back to the 'table' with further thoughts after a few games with these guys.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Mixed formation will be inefficient and unattractive, like mixing Predator types.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

So go the 4 formation regardless of rarity?

Hmmm. That would be fine too as it means no real change to the current list.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats