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Space Marines.

consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:23 pm

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(Dwarf Supreme @ Oct. 25 2006,13:08)

QUOTE

(consectari @ Oct. 25 2006,12:55)

QUOTE

Before, the Vindi was so slow, it was a handicap to take it with Preds...Now it's so short ranged, it's still not worth the taking.

That's why I like being able to take a detachment of Vindies.

Of course these are all just "proposed" changes and not set in stone, but under Hena's "proposed" changes, there would no longer be a Vindi formation.

We need a poll, like the dreadnaught fix poll over at SG.

There would be a list of proposed changes and you could offer your reaction to each proposed change.

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:10 pm

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(Hena @ Oct. 25 2006,14:50)

QUOTE

Yes. the staying power of marines is ... tactical detachment. It is not (and not supposed to me in my opinion) predators. Another formation that will survive longer is ... land raiders. These two are the "staying power" of marines.

So a Pred formation should be fire and forget? ?It would be fine if I had a fair sized broken formation left. ?I could still shoot, or move to block enemy movement, but I don't have enough units left for that.

Predator is fast assault and support tank. If you leave into place where enemy is free to blast at it, sure it's going to be whacked.

It would be fine if I could move, shoot, move or EVER outranged my opponent. ?The only way this works is to hold to the last activation, then activate at the begining of the next turn to escape. ?That means I can only take one USEFUL Pred formation & I can't use this tactic for any other type of plan.

I've played with it few times (mostly annihilator + hunter) and it can pack a helluva punch. The opponents that gets to see them tends to be my target and usually shot to bits before it can do anything. Or assaulted by other units to bits. Same as land speeders (except they don't get to fire that much).

I guess my problem is playing against IG (always in cover behind Chimera) & BL (good armor saves). ?I throw out one heck of a volley, but they still have a ton of units left to chew me up when I'm done. ?I need to be able to survive their attack the next turn to escape and fight somewhere else.

Vindicators cannon is 24" in 40k that translates into 15cm. Why it was 30cm I don't know.
Wouldn't know, don't play 40k. ?I'm just trying to make an Epic army work. ?My guess it was made 30cm so it could remain useful.

And please could you try it before judging to hardly

. And I can always be wrong, so no worries

.

I exclusively play "mud marines". ?Just my personal choice. ?Two Vindis that can't shoot anything ARE going to help the survivability of the Pred formation, but aren't going to give you 75 points each worth of performance. ?Again, I agree, TC-Vinids are a great unit for Tacs & Devs, just not for Preds.

I think most of your suggestions are great. ?They are going to be a great help to most of the lagging formations. ?Preds just got a poor deal. ?I think too many changes were made to the Vindi. ?A 5cm speed increase was all that was needed to make it a valuable contributor in a Pred formation. ?Put it out front, helps make up for shorter range & it takes the first hit. ?On paper, it looks perfect. ?

Everything else in the Codex list is a this or that armament type unit. ?I'll gladly take a Thunderer Cannon Vindi for Inf. & a Demolisher Cannon Vindi for Preds.

I only get to play about once every 4-6 weeks. ?I'm not dying to beat somebody, I just play to have fun. ?I've lost way more than I've won & I keep going back. ?However, this is one of my rare chances to contribute more than theory to the developement of the Codex list. ?I want to test something I think has a chance of being useful.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:36 pm

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I agree that Vindicators really need 30cm range in Epic, otherwise, Hena's ideas are a brilliant start on ways to make ground-based Marines more attractive a choice.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:38 pm

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I want to test something I think has a chance of being useful.

Take the book Vindicator, make the Demolisher "Slow Fire", Increase speed to 30cm, and improve the FF stat to 3+. The basic idea is that you pay for the increased speed and better FF ability by making the Demolisher slow firing. That should maintain the same value yet give you the performance characteristics that would help.

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jfrazell

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:41 pm

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30cm is what is used for demolisher cannon in the guard list. Thats a little long considering its equal to more long range weaponry in the eldar codex, but I haven't seen anyone with a difficulty with that.

I'd strongly disagree with making the vindi 30cm movement. Thats the same speed as a chimera and you're getting close to skimmer speeds at that point (note a Leman goes 20cm). ?This is not a high speed battletank, this is a moving siege mortar.

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consectari

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:33 pm

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(Blarg D Impaler @ Oct. 25 2006,16:38)

QUOTE

I want to test something I think has a chance of being useful.

Take the book Vindicator, make the Demolisher "Slow Fire", Increase speed to 30cm, and improve the FF stat to 3+. ?The basic idea is that you pay for the increased speed and better FF ability by making the Demolisher slow firing. ?That should maintain the same value yet give you the performance characteristics that would help.

I don't feel it needs to go to 30cm move. It could maintain w/ LRs at 25cm & only slow Preds down a little.

I don't see how it should have FF 3+ every turn, if it can only fire it's main weapon ever other turn. I don't see that working out.

As long as the Vindi improvements don't get out of control, I don't see a reason to downgrade one thing to "pay" for another. It's kind of overpriced for it's performance.

@jfrazell
I'd strongly disagree with making the vindi 30cm movement.... This is not a high speed battletank, this is a moving siege mortar.
I agree 30cm is not needed, but I think 25cm could be justified as it is based on a high speed unit (the Rhino).

@Hena
IG troopers aren't that much of a problem. With pred annihilators I'd smoke the chimeras. Then assault with tacticals to wipe them out.
In this case you have just used 2 activations to possibly cripple a single formation. If your Guard opponent is of a similar tactical ability to your self, he can cripple 2 of your formations in a game with one of his, just based on shear mass. You can't run from him forever.

I can usually get 2 more activations than my Guard opponent. If it takes multiple formations to cripple a single enemy formation, then you need to be able to vastly out activate your opponent. Which isn't possible with the Codex list.

There needs to be a middle ground. If you can out activate him by 2, then you could afford a few formations that have to work together to be effective. The others need to be able to survive on their own.

I think the "armour upgrade" might be a mistake for any formation but assaults. Preds just add too much firepower to any other formation you attach them to.

Hunter is a good upgrade. Adding it allows that formation to possibly get a shot at some of those units in the back they might not otherwise be able to hit.

0-2 Vindis w/ speed 25cm IS going to be usefull. Until testing is done, I'd hold off on MW.

Points breaks on the armour formations is going to help.
I'd still argue that Tacs need to be 275. I just can't see how they are worth 50 points more than Devs. Somebody please explain that to me.

I've learned this morning that I'll be playing against 'Nids this Saturday. My first time facing them. Fortunately it is also my opponents first time using them! Now I need to brush up on who those synapse creatures are and what are their weaknesses.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:33 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 24 2006,21:56)

QUOTE

So no, [attached armor is] not what we want... we want a Codex list that actually achieves its original intended purpose (A multi-role army list, not just Air-Assault).

You're missing my point in the same way that Hena did and I thought I had addressed it in my response to him.

The point is that if you feel that attached armor is a preferred method for making them viable, there is a list that allows that. One effect of porting that feature over into the core SM list is to dilute the flavor of both lists.

The purpose of a variant army list is to feature or allow a different style of army. I know your interpretation of the Codex list is extremely broad in keeping with the fact that the Codex Astartes is supposed to be broad with respect to tactical options. That's fine except that you risk ending up with a muddy, unfocused, fiddly and difficult to balance list.

A different approach, which is what JJ chose, is to make variant army lists to feature the different doctrines. The chapter may be Codex overall but the local commander has chosen a particular tactical approach for a specific battle. The benefit of that approach is a focused list with more limited choices that make it less fiddly and easier to balance.

I think the White Scars article has a very good statement of that design philosophy. White Scars can field a codex TO&E if they want, but the WS list illustrates their preferred tactical method.

The reverse is also true. A "Codex" chapter could be fighting an engagement where they think that a fast attack approach is especially relevant and the player could field a force using the WS list to represent the implementation of a "Codex" fast attack doctrine.

I agree that some features of the SM list need to be buffed to make them more viable but I am afraid the approach being discussed is going to result in such a broadly flexible force org that any other chapter list is nothing more than "Codex + unit X." Right now the development lists and the main fan lists have specific features that make their org different in some way. The suggestions being tossed around here would basically appropriate virtually all those options for the core list, leaving nothing to distinguish the variant lists.

I guess a way of summing that up is that I am extremely hesitant regarding changing the structure of the army list for reasons of both flavor and potentially unforeseen balance issues.

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Bombot

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:50 pm

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I dead behind neal on this. In fact, thanks to him raising the issue, I took a peak at the White Scars list and viewed it with the ?Mud Marines? challenge in mind. That list offers a few things that make it well suited to using such a force:

- a discount for Terminators + Land Raiders (which in turn provides a non-titan BTS formation with some survivability)

- the ability to add a Hunter to the Predator formation

- a decent ground-based assault formation (the bikes)

- 150 point Warhounds (only joking

)

Now I use Dark Angels so I wouldn?t feel any shame in using better bikers than the Codex list ones, but they aren?t so different as to make it ridiculous for other chapters to use them.

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tneva82

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:57 pm

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(Bombot @ Oct. 26 2006,15:50)

QUOTE

Now I use Dark Angels so I wouldn?t feel any shame in using better bikers than the Codex list ones, but they aren?t so different as to make it ridiculous for other chapters to use them.

Walker and +1CC attack? I would call that quite an improvement over reqular bikes.

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J0k3r

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:01 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 11:18 pm
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Location: Edinburgh, UK

Neil,

I completely understand what you are saying here andthink it is a good way to go. However for this approach to have efferct there needs to be a push to accept variant lists and make them "official" alternate doctrine lists.

As its stands there is no way of knowing which variant lists are SG endorsed (bar white scars obviously), and as I see it this is driving the desire to create a consensus codex list, at the potential cost of making it less flavoursome.

I think that there needs to be aprocess, possibly led by the ERC/AC to step in and officially vet some variants, or even designate say 3 variant lists that can stand for different doctrines (ie Air assault, fast attack and mud marine). However I would feel that chapter specific details also need to be scrubbed from the variants for this to happen.

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J0k3r

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:02 pm

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(tneva82 @ Oct. 26 2006,15:57)

QUOTE

(Bombot @ Oct. 26 2006,15:50)

QUOTE

Now I use Dark Angels so I wouldn?t feel any shame in using better bikers than the Codex list ones, but they aren?t so different as to make it ridiculous for other chapters to use them.

Walker and +1CC attack? I would call that quite an improvement over reqular bikes.

IIRC the +1 attacks was another typo

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Bombot

Post subject: Space Marines.

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:12 pm

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Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:06 pm
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Location: Reading, UK

(tneva82 @ Oct. 26 2006,15:57)

QUOTE

(Bombot @ Oct. 26 2006,15:50)

QUOTE

Now I use Dark Angels so I wouldn?t feel any shame in using better bikers than the Codex list ones, but they aren?t so different as to make it ridiculous for other chapters to use them.

Walker and +1CC attack? I would call that quite an improvement over reqular bikes.

They don?t say +1 attack on the front page.

400 points for 8 bikes with Walker seems reasonable to me. I think adding +1 CC makes that formation rather cheap.

That White Scars list really is a mess ? the production I mean, not the list itself.

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