I see not much progress has occurred in the last 2 years. Too bad, I like the DA. I'm even loyal to a bad 40k Codex. Hopefully, a new codex will help rehabilitate what people consider "fluffly" here and in turn take this list out of stasis (no MM on speeders at all... )

So Konate, have you played the list at all...? If so, have you reported back on it to Angel of Caliban?? Left a batrep?

If no one actually playtests this list (regardless of whether they feel it's fluffy or not etc) then the list will stagnate and no additional info from "a new 40K codex" will make any difference.... Lists need people to actually step up and play them to advance them.

I've tried to play it, even made a few list...but I feel the vanilla list suits a DA list better; its more flexible. And, the fact that DA are not allowed Imperial Allies cannot be said to be fluffy at all; look at all the fluff that says they do!

So, I don't play it, haven't tried it, it doesn't do what it should/could; ideas are just too narrow, which is why we are (still) here.

Now, Space Wolves don't have any problem absorbing 'new fluff' and are a very competitive and flexible list with none of the sticking problems that the DA have...wonder why?

I have to say that looking at the DA list I don't see a massive difference between it and the Codex list apart from no allies and the fact there are a ton of fluffy unit types for DAs.

So are you mainly just unhappy that you can't take Titans and planes? Otherwise, how else do you see it being less flexible?

Double post

I don't even own a titan.

Mostly, my frustration is in the belief in the canon of fluff, rather than the flexibility of the reality of fluff that we see all across the official fluff found in all the DA Codecii and BL writings.

But, and I hate to do this as I'd rather just make my own list, but like a cliche, here goes another online rant list:

There are the continuing AA arguments.

Ravenwing Attack should have the option to be constructed, with upgrades, rather than 350 pts for an inflexible list (4 bikes, 2 AB, 2 Tornadoes - 350); SW - (6 bikes, switch out 2 for attack bikes with multi-meltas and 5 typhoons - 400) are arguably better, all with more flexibility - with promotes the choice and likelihood to be seen on the table than the more famous RW. The Ravenwing are less flexible than the SW list, but the RW are more celebrated bikers. Sure, there are other factors (scout is awesome), but if players are going to use them (as the fluff would dictate there would be in a DA army) then people have to want to take them; they need more flexibility.

Yes, Tornadoes are the 'signature' Landspeeder, but its not the only one. Why not allow them MM landspeeders? Why is there a 25 point upgrade to a squad of Tornadoes from regular Landspeeders when SW don't pay for such an upgrade? Why are DA not allowed the MM attack bike while SW are? Where is there ANY fluff showing a SW preference for MM attack bikes?

Tactical squads. Plasma is very nice, and yes it has a limitation. Statistically, even with the slow to fire, its better than a missile launcher firing every round vs. tanks, but worse vs. infantry, fair trade to me. But, since the DA have access to a lot more ancient tech than most chapters, why wouldn't they still have the option of some of the more typical tech. Why not give them an option of either plasma or missiles.

See, for what they are special for, they should have benefits for, and they do; but there is also a lot of inflexibility in their current list that just doesn't look fun for players to even try. They suffer from 'meh' syndrome, which is why you don't get playtesters. And, DA are anything buy a 'meh' chapter, fluff-wise.

Also, their 'Special Rules', should actually read 'Special Limitations'.

Now, its not any particular persons fault. There is a lack of inspiration on the part of GW, no doubt. But, with a new codex coming out, particular formations may be created or no longer exist, or special rules may be created that may inspire more ideas that could help some current problems in the DA Epic list.

I just hope it changes the limitations that people feel the DA must have in an Epic list, because it doesn't really look like a fun list with so many limitations; and I argue that these mentioned inflexibilities are not entirely absolute, fluff-wise.

So you basically want the codex list + lots of extra stuff, painted green?

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I am just wondering if current GW SM have some kind of aircraft that could be a fighter-bomber?

I have not picked up any 40k codex in years, but I have heard SM have new planes. None fit the air cover description?

If such a case existed, then perhaps the DA list would be fitting?

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Rumours say that the Dark Angels will get the Land Speeder Storm instead of the Storm Talon.

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I'd argue that we have a little too close to the codex (which is pretty infamous in its design) in some ways, and not in others. Yes, the DA need something more (mostly flexibility and answers to the last 2 years of concerns, not Thunder Lion cavalry). And, they better be painted green!

Well, for starters the SW comparison is slightly flawed as the SW options are Swiftclaws with a 2+ initiative and a "must consolidate towards enemy" rule which often makes them hard to control. It's not the best comparison. Also, all the RW bikes get Scout and the bikes get a teleport homer. That's a big difference.

All this said, I do see a possibility for a less rigid RW build though.


The SW list incorporates them because of 2 reasons. 1/From the fluff, Swiftclaws like to attack with the biggest bang they can as a speartip attack at the head of the SW column. 2/Not having access to Warhounds I feel the extra MM option helps them cope a littel better towards dealing with WE and still be fluffy. As to the 25 point upgrade, I'm not sure why that is but it could be a typo or a hold-over from when the Marines paid for the upgrade. You'd have to ask A_o_C.


I find it's a bit of a trade off for fluff when you design an Epic list. To make a list more specific than the codex list you need to give it some apparent differences. If the Plasma works out better, why is that a bother?


Wow, I always felt the Hold = Fearless to be a nice ability and Teleport Homers are a neat addition.

Considering teleporting happens at the beginning of a turn, if turn 1 you want your terminators next to your bikes in your deployment zone, hoofing to the enemy the rest of the way, they're perfect!

Give SW teleport homers and DA SW MM speeders. Fair trade?

Well SW terminators don't teleport so...

I can't see why DAs can't have options for speeders. That's something you need to work with A_o_C about.

What are the plans for further development on this list?

I am just about to get the second half of my DA chapter painted and would like to know if the Plasma Cannons on Tacticals are going to stay and/or on the Devastators.

I personally like the current list, save for the following:

- Land Speeders should have more flexibility in armament. Why no Typhoons? Why no MM at all (no miniatures have exculsively HB...)? and the AA Land Speeder would be awesome!

- I rather prefer the RW formation used by the EUK list, aka. 4 Speeders and 4 bikes, than the current 2-2-4. After all the main point of Attack Bikes is to get some shooting ability on the unit, which LS already give. Not a big deal though.




All in all, perhaps just a similar rule than what there is for the Devs on Plasma for Land Speeders, or straight MM on the Land speeders would solve these issues.
+ a full typhoon detachment à la EuK.

Otherwise the list is really great and I enjoy playing it very much, even though the absence of allies is sometimes a real challenge.

AoC?

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re rigidity of the Raven Wing formations: This is how two fully outkitted Squadrons of Raven Wing Attack Squadrons look like in the Codex. Each Squadron has 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike and 1 Land Speeder Tornado. The Attack Bike ca nhave either Multi-melta or Heavy Bolter but the Land Speeder can't changehuis Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon. So the Attack BIke was giventhe Multi-melta instead.
The Two of these Squadrons form the Raven Wing Attack Detachment.

In the Codex the Ravenwing Support Squadron consists of 1-5 Land Speeders armed with Heavy Bolters. Only one can be upgraded to a Typhoon and only one to be a Tornado with Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer.
Each Land Speeder can exchange the Heavy Bolter for a Multi-melta.

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