sure, they may have fewer on the board but then they're bloody drop podding/ teleporting/ air assaulting largely where and whenever they like. Surely you should expect some consequence (fewer on board activations until that happens) of that, right?

Space Marines are a speartip thrust, designed to decapitate/ incapacitate the enemy in one stroke, not conquer and hold ground (that'd be IG's job description). Trying to turn them into IG just isn't going to work.

By all means try 4 LR at 300pts, but 8 at 600 (plus character for 50pts) would be seriously scary - even partially suppressing that fm would be a nightmare job with ATSKNF, letting alone breaking it or taking it out.

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numquam culum es

Space Marine main battle force is Black Legion territory, they can&should field armoured companies.

Currently, the SM formation is 4-strong, no upgrades allowed, and never seen.

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If you want to play a "tank-heavy" Marine army, you'd be better served by the Scions of Iron list, than the generalist Space Marine list.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I´m not, and I did not argue for more upgrades.
My point is that LRs are way to expensive in the basic list. They are never taken, and all of us old-timers have dozens of them, so let´s make them at the very least a remote option.

With all due respect, name ANY other SM formation that is less attractive!

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We're moving in the right direction here, I think.

Personally, I reckon a default formation of 8 LRs is too strong--a 6-strong formation with the ability to upgrade it is more reasonable.

I propose the following:

Land Raider Detachment with 6 LRs: 450pts
Upgrades:
0-2 Predators at 75pts each
   OR Vindicators at 50pts each
0-1 Hunter at 75pts each

At between six and nine units per formation (requiring between 12 and 18 blast markers to break it), this would take a LR formation into similar realms as a Guard company for break-resistance, and shouldn't otherwise ruin the Marines list (eg by making the LR detachment The Insta-Kill God Formation).

Thoughts?

Oops ... typo ... meant to type 450pts (6 x 75) fixed now.  

I would rather stick with 4@300 with maybe a Hunter upgrade or very maybe Commander, but massed armour is not what the basic SM list should field.

Your numbers are okay though. I just disagree on style.

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I think you misunderstand, I don't want to play tank heavy... I want to be able to take a formation of tanks. Just one will be fine as long as it isn't pathetic.

This is nothing but 'Space marines are supposed to fly' recycled yet again, and no matter how many times it comes around the fact is that its undefensable to advocate that options in an army list are intentionally supposed to be misably useless.



Scary is what Land Raiders should be. Compare to a tactical formation with 6 razorbacks and two hunters, clocking in at 600 too but with 14 stands of less tough stuff. You can get fairly close using vindicators, but it seems silly that you're tagging them along just so they can be shot instead of a land raider instead of taking tanks that you actually want.

Possibly allowing both 300 base cost and the access to extra land raiders is too much I admit but I think its a workable solution. But I don't see how a unit of 4 can work, if a Shadowsword splats one, then after suppression you've lost half your firepower. They're not just on their back foot... they're out of game.



Why? I don't see the need to continue preserving something that is wrong... I find this akin to says, "IG are supposed to be slow and grinding forces, therefore we're going to charge you 600 points for 4 Vultures, and the same again to buy Vakyries for your stormtroopers... if you want to field them you should piss off and play Elysian drop troops instead."

(Edit: Excuse the quote times being made up, the code seems to need to the format the post properly   )

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"A good orbital insertion is one you walk away from, a great one is where they can use the Thunderhawk again." Roboute Guilliman.

We do indeed disagree there. I see useful formations of Marine armour as very "fluffy".  

There has already been much discourse in this thread about the iconic status of Land Raiders, and (from what I have seen) zero disagreement on that point.

This is pretty much the crux of my arguement: for an iconic unit, they're pretty lameâ€â€

well try 'em out then - 300pts for 4, add upto 4 extra for 75pts each, 0-2 predators for 75pts each, 1 hunter for 75pts and 0-2 vindicators for 50pts each. 925pts (975pts with character) for 13 mostly RA tanks, unsuppressible AA, 22+ AT4 shots and requiring 26BM to break. Go wild! See if it works! Does it ever get broken or suppressed? Is it possible to gain BTS from it? Is it overpowering or does the extra cost (and reduced activation no.) balance it out?

I'd be happy to play anyone (vassal though, sadly) using those costs/ formation structure, simply for the sake of moving people along. If it is overpowering and gets rejected though, will people keep bleating on about it? If it isn't, will it ever get accepted by the army champ? Perhaps it'll be a useful counterpoint to everyone else that complains about SM being a 1 trick air assault pony

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numquam culum es

Let me just clarify that the Predator/Vindicator relationship should be either/or rather than both, thereby limiting the formation size to a maximum of 9 units, of which just 6 have RA. That should be a balanced beastie.  

I'll playtest it if I can, but I'm in the middle of starting a new job and subdividing my property, so spare time is somewhat limited.  :S

(By the way, Matt, how's the new gig treating you? Enjoying it over there?)  

I don't see any obvious issue even with what I outlined - afterall, would anyone really want to spend 1/3 of their points on a single formation which could be broken in a single clipping assault (unlikely, but you get my point)? There's no reason either not to test a fm of 4 for 300pts, then keep ramping on the upgrades until it breaks.

good news on the new job, hope this one is less stressful than the last! Things are going pretty well here too, bloody cold though (as opposed to bloody hot   ). Anytime you want a game and can fit around the 16h time difference, let me know

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numquam culum es

I agree with this   .

Especially only taking up 1 space,if 3 bikes take up 1 place then a Bike with sidecar shouldn't take up more.

Hena:  Can we get a summary?

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Neal