Spent a month distracted with a local tournament, but am now thinking about Blood Angels development again.

I think it might be worth thinking about a statement of intent for what we want the BA list to play like. Comparing with other marine lists, we have:

- Codex Astartes: Uses Thunderhawks to juggle a terminator unit, along with Scouts, Speeders, Thunderbolts, and Warhounds

- Space Wolves: can run cost-effective, very large Great Companies which are resilient to taking some wounds. Fill landers very nicely

- Raven Guard: Focus on very small elite units with Ambush for self-planetfall.

- Ordo Xenos: Also focus on very small units of elite Veterans and Vanguard Veterans, with inducted Guard as an option


Raven Guard and Ordo Xenos both run Vanguard Veterans, whose profile (but not unit composition) I want to steal.

I might suggest for Blood Angels that we emphasize the use of fliers, skimmers, and jump pack infantry for maneuverable, hard-hitting units, but ones which risk running out of steam. We currently have quite few units in the roster and I would feel comfortable adding more. Some suggested additions are:

- Vanguard Veterans: 75 points to add 2 to an Assault Detachment
- Sanguinary Guard: 25 point upgrade to Assault Detachment unit (must already have a Character)
- Fire Raptors: 275 points for 2, statline posted. Could do Thunderhawk CAS instead?
- Despoilers: 225 points for 6 plus transport
- Stormravens: Split into Stormraven Transport upgrade, and Strike Squadron, as said above.
- Destroyers: 225 points for 6, as a Jump Pack firefight unit

Profiles are posted here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dw31Jv3zDkt5Dh56Vr-sRABd0OYT4YIziJliO8AbonI/edit?usp=sharing.

Questions:

1. Any glaring balance issues?
2. Is adding Destroyers introducing too much Heresy stuff?
3. Should I use the Fire Raptors, or just plug in the (very good) Thunderhawk CAS from the Scions of Iron list?
4. Any other ideas?


EDIT:

One very out-there idea I had - summonable Sanguinor? Like an Avatar equivalent.

Double-posting, but I had a brainwave about the Sanguinor, because it can help solve the "falling on your face turn two" problem with the list.

The Sanguinor
Type: INF
Move: 30cm
Save: 4+
CC: 3+
FF: 4+
Blade Encarmine: Assault Weapon, MW EA+2

Jump Packs, Reinforced Armour, Invulnerable Save, Commander, Leader, Inspiring

Deployment:

During the Rally phase, when about to roll to rally a broken Blood Angels unit which contains Infantry or Dreadnoughts, you may place the Sanguinor in the unit. It automatically rallies, and may make one move.

Remove the Sanguinor at the end of the next turn. The Sanguinor may only be summoned once per game.

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This puts him at a Winged Daemon Prince power level (no MW FF, but some helpful rules). You need to have a broken infantry unit to bring him in which restrains it as a free "win more" mechanic but it can pull your chestnuts out of the fire. It also makes the positioning of your broken units into an important subgame of its own, since you'll get one move but then he only has his charge move engagement range.

Thoughts?

I have a "V.3.1.5" list written. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dw31Jv3zDkt5Dh56Vr-sRABd0OYT4YIziJliO8AbonI/edit?usp=sharing

Removals:
- Bike unit removed (nobody takes this)
- Land Raider Redeemer removed (doubt anyone takes it)
- Terminators are 0-1 (differentiation from Codex Astartes list, and the other terminators are busy on the space hulk!)
- Land Speeder Multi-Melta variant removed (differentiation from Codex Astartes list, overlap with Predator Infernus)

Changes:
- Stormravens split into Stormraven Strike Wing and Stormraven Transport
- Strike Wing get long-ranged guns, including an AA shot
- Transports lose missiles, discounted to 50 each

Additions:
- Vanguard Veteran upgrade option added to Assault Detachment
- Sanguinary Guard upgrade added to Assault Detachment characters
- Sanguinor added
- Fire Raptor Gunships added
- Despoilers (i.e. Mounted Assault) detachment added
- Assault Support Detachment added
- Predator Destructor Detachment added

The current intended theme is to focus in on jump pack infantry. These struggle from a small threat range, being melee-specialists with weak firefight and no guns. The customization options and chance for the Sanguinor to lead a battered unit back into the fray late game is my attempt at making these more relevant.

I do not fully know the process in which this would become the semi-official current version of the developmental list. Apart from helpful comments from my gaming group and others online, I seem to be the only one particularly engaged with the list. I don't even know if it has an army champion.

As always, any opinions are welcome!

Bikes? Fine
Redeemer? Boooooo. Put it back =p

You should hit Dave up to get his blessings on taking over and testing the list. He's running the Marine section now that Kyuss retired

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Good to know - I messaged him.

I'm fine adding Redeemers back in. They don't seem particularly strong, for what it's worth. How do you run them?

with a landing craft and with glee

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I guess that's the way to do it. 3+ IC firefight priced at 125 for 2 feels a bit expensive. Normal raider firefight isn't much weaker and they get a decent pile of guns, and I still rarely bring them.

yeah they probably should be 25point cheaper for 4

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-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

After a good long while, I got specialty Blood Angels units painted and played two games today at my club. More concise battle reports and development thought below:

My List:

Death Company (2 DCD, Jump Packs) 475
Assault Detachment (2 extra, 2 VV, SG, Supreme Commander) 450
Assault Support Detachment 175
Assault Support Detachment 175
Predator Destructors (Hunter) 300
Baal Predators (Assault Cannon) 250
Stormraven Strike Wing 350
Scouts 150
Fire Raptor Gunships 275
Thunderhawk 200
Thunderhawk 200



Eldar: He brought a fairly standard-ish Biel-Tan army. 2x Guardians, 1x Aspects, some tanks and super-heavies, Revenants, phoenix bombers, 2x rangers. I put the Assault Detachment and Death Company each in a Thunderhawk, deploying other formations mostly along my center-right. Eldar spread his army equally across his DZ.

We both played very cagily, moving individual units up for potshots at each other. I broke some garrisoned rangers and the tanks, while he killed half of my Stormravens with the titans. Late in round I sent the Death Company in on the Revenant, but the Thunderhawk got critted by CAP planes, ouch. My second attempt with my SC assault detachment went better, killing a Revenant Titan and setting up to charge his Storm Serpent and strand a Guardian unit in the webway. 

Rallies went badly for Eldar, broken units remaining broken. 

I won initiative Turn Two, trying to send my Predators to shoot up the Storm Serpent and then charge it with my Assaults, but failed both 2+ initiative rolls because of the Red Thirst. Eldar set up to punish with the Guardians +  3 Wraithlords charging out of the Serpent's portal, but got deployment wrong, allowing my assault marines to countercharge and base most units, leading to me decisively winning the combat. We called it at this point, because his army was mostly broken.

Close Blood Angels Victory


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Orks: He had a very big Supa-Stompa formation (adding 3 stompas, flakwagon, bunch of killa kanz), a big mounted mob with his Warlord, a bunch of gunwagon formations each with an oddboy and a flakwagon, a warbiker mob, and 2x3 fighta-bombas. 

Similar deployment setup to last time, him spread evenly, myself more concentrated in the center. Also similar process of us both trickling units in and shooting, until he left his Warboss unit largely alone and still mounted. I strafed with my Fire Raptors and he bombed all saves, losing his warlord in the process, then dove on them with my Death Company thunderhawk, losing the 3 normal bases but wiping the unit out. Later in the round I sent my SC Assault formation into a gunwagon unit, wiping it and setting up for a round 2 charge into his Supa-Stompa BTS. I wagered I could avoid the melee stompas, and concentrate enough hits into the Killa-Kanz to swing combat resolution. 

Round two I executed it, shooting the BTS up with Baal Predator assault cannons (1-2 kills) and charging. We tied first round, but I got wiped out in the second round, my support fire having accomplished nothing. I still did enough damage to break the unit. We called it end of round 2, with the Orks reduced to just the bikers (who failed activation) and the Supa-Stompas encircled and about to be charged with a ton of supporting fire.

Blood Angels Victory

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Unit Analysis

Fire Raptors

Both players were quite fine with the list, with some concerns about the Fire Raptors. One suggested using an Epic 30k statline instead, which is 300 points (mine is 275) with marginally different weapon profiles, has 5+RA rather than a 3+, and is a Fighter-Bomber instead of a Bomber. I think getting the option of Intercept/CAP is actually an upgrade even with the 11% worse armor. Not sure what to do here. If people would prefer those, I guess I'm fine changing even though it seems better.

Stormravens and Predators

The Stormravens have finally found their place as a designated AV-shooting strike unit. Pop-ups work well with their range and their AA is a nice supplement. The Red Thirst was a notable liability for both them and the Predators, who need to be very close to do their job, and you don't always want to charge with the predators (and never want to with the Ravens). This nearly lost me the game with the Eldar player - many BA units are going to be stuck on -1 to activate for Turn 2 onwards.

Assault Supports

I'm very happy with these. 175 is just about the maximum they're worth. Unit is great for shooting, skirmishing, support fire, and 1-2 of these in a Thunderhawk is enticing. Fewer models than scouts, though, more expensive, and lack Scout so no Garrisoning or ZOC trolling. They're a good consolation prize for losing Melta Speeders.

Considering: Ruling that a Librarian is just 25 points, represented by the plasma pistol dual-wielding Moritats I've got in the models. Adding a single MW FF for 50 is not worth it, but 25 might be. 

Assaults, Vanguard Veterans, Sanguinary Guard

Also happy with this. The price gets up there - 350 before character - but you can send a Thunderhawk in late round 1, kill something, and combo into another unit round 2, which is what I wanted from them. They've got a bit of staying power (since you can tank wounds on the Assaults while the Veterans and Sanguinary Guard do the work). Not better or worse than Terminators, lacking guns or built-in delivery. 

Death Company
They do their job, but in a very one-note sort of way. They'll kill what you sent them at but only once. Would it be sacrilegious to make these 0-1 instead of mandatory?


Land Raiders?

I'll add Redeemers back in (Jimmy cried when I removed them). Tempted to add Raiders as an independent unit of 4. Considering you'll suffer Red Thirst activation penalties they're effectively debuffed relative to Codex Astartes.


Questions Going Forward
1. Change Death Company to 0-1?
2. 25 point Librarian (i.e. Moritat) for Assault Supports?
3. Land Raiders as independent unit?
4. Change Fire Raptors to Thunderhawk CAS or alter the profile?
5. I never got a message back about taking over the list. Is there any other way to contact Dave?

Thanks to all. Thoughts are much appreciated.

Two more Battle Reports, and some unit updates after consultation with my group.


Dark Eldar:

DE using UK list, with almost everyone in barges or raider ships. I brought the same list as above. Problem out of the gate is that my heavy hitter units were all melee. I made some bad moves turn one (lunging Stormravens way too far forward and getting them melted by TK) compounded by very good DE saving dice.

End of turn one it looked like game over, but we played the first few activations of turn two in which it started suddenly swinging around, compounded by us not taking it super seriously and the DE player forgetting his Teleport and webway portal units.

It swung around in my favor on turn three. But that was heavily influenced by my being right about to concede end of turn one (we were already sort of talking about it as a post-mortem and lost focus), so not a real win.



Skitarii Legion:

I brought a slightly modified list, dropping the Stormravens, Fire Raptors, and an Assault Support, adding another hunter, a Terminator unit, and devastators in Stormraven Transports. Also swapped Baals from AC to Magna Melta.

Skitters had two minorus formations each with Quake Cannon and Landing Pad, which influenced my cautious advance. Those supported a sagitarii unit on garrison, two infantry blobs mounted in minoruses, three crusader units, and two avenger fighter squadrons. Disaster arrived quickly on turn one, with both of my thunderhawk air assaults got shot down. First was from a single CAP fighter critical, second was the Death Company getting downed by 6x AA6+ Minorus flak shots. Groan.

We accepted that "timeline" was a loss for BA, and put the second Thunderhawk back into play with 1 damage to get more game out of it. The Death Company within mostly destroyed the Supreme Commander's infantry unit (2 secutor plus hypaspists) but got mauled themselves and were wiped out that turn.

I made a good try at it, pressuring Skitarii back and hitting the durable/fast units and trying to squeeze out a win on objectives, and nearly managed it. But Skitter player made good use of Avengers and artillery to pound my guys in the midfield for the win.


---

The Sanguinor did arrive both of these games (I expect he's only going to arrive in games where things are going badly, which is good). In both he led a Jump Pack unit back into combat and he died both times (once to random wounds, once to eating a TK shot).

Some changes made based on games and feedback:


- Assault Supports up-costed from 175 to 200, and the number you can bring is capped at the number of Assault Detachments you bring. They also gain a Veteran Sergeant upgrade for 25 points, who is a character with just a MW EA FF shot.

- Baal Predators reduced to 225.

- Vanguard Veteran upgrade on Assault Detachment decreased in price to 50.

- Devastators have their Missile Launchers replaced with Assault Cannons. 2x 30cm AP5+/AT5+. Iliastus ACs are thematic for Blood Angels, and it gives them some more AT firepower but at closer range.,

- Fire Raptor profile has been tinkered with. 3+ save turned to 5+RA to slightly weaken it, and give Lance AA shooting a chance to influence it.

- Death Company are switched from 1 Mandatory to 0-1. They're such an expensive one-use unit that I don't want to force the list to be built around them every time.

Played a game against Vraks Renegades; called it a tie at end of turn three because of time constraints.

Vraks had a reg HQ infantry unit and two infantry companies, all in entrenchments with heavy mortars and hydras or sabres, minotaurs, disciples of Xaphan, Alpha Legion in raiders, two hell talon squadrons, and Valdors.

I brought:
Assault formation (5 assaults, 2 van vets, SC, sanguinary guard) in Thunderhawk
Assault Support
Devastators (garrisoned)
Terminators with Chaplain
Scouts with Lazerback
Baal Predators (melta) with hunter
Predator Destructors with hunter
Stormraven Strikes
Stormtalons
Empty Thunderhawk

Vraks castled up; my terminators mulched the screening disciples and supported the empty Thunderhawk destroying the minotaurs on a lucky combat res roll. Other fights on T1 went 50/50, with disaster striking as I air assaulted the big Assault formation into the mounted Alpha Legion; overwatch fire killed an assault marine which allowed several raiders to unload and win the combat. I shouldn't have gone for it in the first place.

Throughout turn two I tried to just keep boxing the Vraks into their castle to hopefully grab TSNP and two objectives or BTS.

Edit: Adding that the Sanguinor joined the two remaining terminators [unit cut in half and broken by Valdor sustain fire on turn two after losing initiative ], rallied them and charged into the Vraks reg. HQ, breaking and destroying most of the unit but losing Sangy and not bagging the Supreme Commander. I like the position the Sanguinor is in; in the games he has taken part, he at most helped swing it back from a likely loss to a shot at tie/turn four.

By end of turn three it was still indecisive; we both had a possible path to victory and had no time. I think it probably slightly favored Vraks but I had a shot at killing BTS and holding the Blitz. So we called it a tie/ish.


I have made a few changes again:
- Tactical Formations: FF improved to 3+, but missile launcher (45cm AP5/At6) debuffed to heavy bolter (30cm AP5) to add focus on close range assaults and bring them back to relevance.

- Stormraven Strike cyclone missile launcher changed from 45cm AP5/AT6 with 30cm AA6+ to the Land Speeder Missile: 45cm AP3/AT5, while Bloodstrikes are now AT4+.

I'm still testing it and hope to play another development game soon. I still do feel that the list is weaker than Space Wolves doing similar air/drop assaults because of the latter's large formations, and my win record is fairly mixed. So I don't feel like it's broken.

Two more batreps: 2k against Vraks Traitors, 3k against Skitarii Legion.

2000 Points: Drop + Air Assault Blood Angels versus Fortified Vraks Renegades

Vraks had a regimental HQ infantry blob and an Infantry company, with a Hydra and 3x Infantry Mortars each, in fortified positions, supported by Disciples of Xaphan in Chimeras, 3x Minotaurs, Alpha Legion in Rhinos, and Helltalons.

I had Tacticals and Devastors drop podding from a Strike Cruiser, an Assault Formation (5x assaults, 2x vanguard vets, 1x Supreme Commander in Sanguinary Guard) in a Thunderhawk, an Assault Support formation with two frag cannon dreadnoughts in a Thunderhawk, and some scouts.

Vraks deployed with the infantry blobs in front of their DZ garrisoned off objectives I pushed deep into their half, then the Disciples of Xaphan garrisoned and blocking off everything behind to screen for their Minotaurs and Alpha Legion. My drop pod assault landed in the middle, but were screened away by the Disciples because of Scout. We BM'd everything but the Alpha Legion, but deathwinds only hit fortified infantry on 6s and they save on 4+, so we dealt zero wounds. Retained and assaulted the HQ with my tacticals + dev support fire, dealt and took a ton of damage and just lost combat. Vraks shattered the Devastators with a sustain fire from the other infantry.

Back to me; I had the Scouts clip assault the Disciples, breaking them, but they could stilll screen everything. Vraks put the helltalons on CAP in the corner. I sent the Assault Support thunderhawk into the broken Disciples, just close enough to put all of its guns where the CAP fighters would enter and able to get shots into and kill one Disciple. But he spiked a 5+ MW firefight, leaving us equal on kills. I was ahead on combat resolution by 1, and lost combat on the roll. Didn't lose any more assault supports, but the Thunderhawk died.

In desperation, I sent the last thunderhawk into the Alpha Legion. Winning was dicey even after getting flak'd and CAP'd, but if I could knock them out and put a second BM on the Minotaurs I'd wreck those and set up for a Turn 2 charge on the regimental HQ (BTS).

So, it was only natural that the Thunderhawk died to a single hydra flak critical. We called it there.

Decisive Vraks Victory

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3000 Points: Mechanized + Air Assault Blood Angels VS Minorus and Avenger Spam Skitarii

I brought:
Despoilers (Supreme Commander, 2x Vindicator, Hunter) [BTS]
Assault Formation (5x Assault, 2x Vanguard Veteran, 1x Sanguinary Guard with Chaplain)
Thunderhawk
Assault Support (4x Assault Support, 2x Frag Cannon Furioso Dreadnought)
Thunderhawk
Terminators (Chaplain)
Land Speeders (5x Tempest rockets)
Scouts (3x lazerbacks, but I forgot to put those in, d'oh!)
Infernus Predators (4x Magna Melta, 2x Vindicator, Hunter)
Stormtalons


Skitarii Brought:
5x Secutor + 5x Gun Drone blob in transport Minorus, with Magos [BTS]
Sagitarii with Hydra
Sagitarii with Hydra
2x Gatling Minorus
1x Gatling, 1x Plasma Destructor Minorus
1x Quake, 1x Landing Pad Minorus
Avenger Strike Fighters
Avenger Strike Fighters
Avenger Strike Fighters
Crusader Robots
Crusader Robots

(jesus christ that's a lot of AA)

Deployment

Both Sagitarii units Overwatch garrisonned in cover (woods on my left, building on my right) which inconveniently put flak coverage across the whole board. Minoruses and the BTS sat close (5.1mm) to each other, with bubbling by Crusaders.

Round 1

I held back my Terminator teleport turn one for lack of good targets, leaving me painfully short on activations T1, much to my detriment. First I doubled my predators to shoot up the woods Sagitarii, losing a vindicator and predator to Overatch. Shot them up, then assaulted with Speeders, losing one but almost wiping out the Sagitarii.

Quake minorus sustained into the preds, wrecking the unit and breaking them. I thunderhawk cannon sniped the hydra in the other Sag unit and assaulted with Scouts, but got hammered by overwatch (again) and lost combat. Speeders got wrecked by the gatling minoruses, I moved up my despoilers, then they got beat up by the plasma/quake minorus formation.

I air assaulted those with my assaults, wrecking both, and did OK in the air exchanges; two Avenger formations lost a fighter and all took BMs, while I lost a Stormtalon and a thunderhawk wound. Unfortunately I did badly on rallies.

The BTS shuffled into a crusader robot scout bubble, with all infantry loaded in the bus, with the robots going on Overwatch. Important.

Round 2

I teleported my terminators next to the gatling minorus formation, then lost the initiative roll-off (ugh). Gatlings clip assaulted the termies and broke them, while quake cannon shot my despoilers.

This was probably a misplay. My assaults could juuust charge the crusaders, destoying the unit but getting smashed by macro weapon firefight and breaking themselves. But my assault supports could get the Minorus now, pinning everyone inside and destroying it, wiping the unit to just the Fearless Magos on combat resolution.

Most of the avengers came on, shooting up various units, and I lost my last stormtalon to one.

I'd need to spike dice and kill the BTS and somehow keep the Skitarii off my board side for any shot at victory. I put the Sanguinor in my Terminators, moving to set up for a charge on the lonely Magos, but my rally rolls were terrible.

Round 3

Skitarii win initiative, again. Sagitarii slaughtered my broken BTS, and Magos tries to activate but fails, which conveniently breaks him and he runs away from the terminator charge range. l'm basically hooped at this point, unable to kill the magos or keep the Skitarii off my board side, so we call it.

Decisive Skitarii Victory (if less lopsided than game 1)

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Army Analysis

In the modern version of the list, I have struggled heavily against the stronger players in my local meta, whom I usually can take on at fairly even footing. 

[UGH, the system signed me out while writing this]

Compared to the strongest Imperial Fists and Space Wolves armies I have run, the list falls short in two ways:

1. Both Wolves and Fists can include better overall AA (whether Hunters or Thunderbolts) ensuring control of the air game, and their better ranged fire allows more potential for setting up good assaults.

Blood Angels have useful side units, but cannot shoot up garrisons, snipe AA, or clear chaff as well.

2. Both Wolves and Fists's premier assault units (bulky Great Companies, or Tactical Formations with maxed Rapiers and Rhinos) have way more models, bring their own AA, and can firefight to reduce casualties.

Assault Formations have about half as many models, and must get maximally close to fight effectively, ensuring you get firefighted by everyone in the enemy formation.


Buffs feel strongly warranted. Some under consideration:
1. Cheapening Assaults by 25 points
2. Including the Veteran Sergeant in Assault Supports at base (an extra MW FF attack)
3. Replacing Stormtalons with Stormhawks (which will be generally better)
4. Adding Stormraven AA fire back, possibly cutting price to 325
5. Allowing Land Speeders to all upgrade to Tempests for 25 (rather than 10 each)

These are all intended to focus Blood Angels more as a close-ranged, air + jump pack + skimmer assault army, while accomodating for the weaknesses inherent to this archetype.