The Minervan list was something like:

- Super Heavy Company
- Leman Russ Company (Conquerors, two Hellhound)
- Leman Russ Company (Demolishers, Hydra)
- Hydra formation
- Storm Troopers in Valkyries
- Salamander Scouts
- Medusa gun formation
- Mechanized infantry platoon
- Warhound Titan
- Thunderbolt fighters

A pretty decent list but he consciously didn't optimize with some picks like the Medusas.

Pre-Game:

Blood Angels force corner deployment, putting both objectives far from the Minervan deployment zone and plotting Orbital Bombardment plus drop pods (Death Company, two Tactical formations) to mostly come in on the short arm of his deployment zone. Minervans spread Storm Troopers (dismounted) across their frontage, with Salamander Scouts on the remaining corner, deploying everyone else spaced decently so the bombardment and Deathwind won't wreak havoc on multiple units.

Turn 1:

Terminators teleport on the Minervan right wing and assault the Storm Troopers, narrowly winning and opening the scout screen. Minervan player infers the drop is targeted there, and moves his Hydras out a bit. Next, I bring down the drop pods where he expected, breaking the hydras and doing some damage plus blast-markering the Storm Troopers, Medusas, titan, mechanized infantry, conquerors, and Super Heavy Company. I retain with the Death Company to charge the super-heavies, killing the SC and another vehicle but leaving the commissar alive and getting shot up badly, losing half my unit

On their other flank, the Demolishers shoot up the Tacticals with the dreadnought but whiff badly, getting just the dreadnought and a single stand. The Tacticals then assault the medusas, killing everyone but the commissar (for the second time) but get themselves mauled and broken from supporting fire, then destroyed later in the turn.

Later, the lander drops Assaults+Dreads on the Conqueror Russ company, killing everyone but the commissar (third time!). Tacticals wipe out the Storm Troopers, Thunderhawk picks up terminators. Only the Conqueror russes rally.

Round 2:

I charge my assault formation into the mech platoon, destroying them but losing the SC as my sole casualty (ouch). Thunderhawk fails to come on (ouch). The Warhound assaults my Tacticals with supporting fire from Demolishers, annihilating them (ouch). The Demolishers retain and annihilate the Assault marines, one dreadnought limping away and denying the BTS (ouch). Scouts assault the Salamanders but also lose, avenged by the Lander air assaulting and wiping them out, with a blast marker killing the last hydra. 

Storm Talons and Thunderbolts have sat in a CAP standoff both rounds. Broken Medusa does not rally, and neither does his last Baneblade, which withdraws to sit on his Blitz.

Pretty rough round 2!


Round 3:

Guard wins initiative. He's got the titan with plasma ready, the solo conqueror, and the Demolishers, along with the Thunderbolts. The last unit in his BTS is the Commissar Baneblade sitting broken on his Blitz. 

He has to try to do some combination of killing one of my BTS units (Death Company, last dreadnought), protecting his BTS, protecting his Blitz, and trying to grab objectives. We are also running short on time. 

He decided to double the Conqueror to shoot my broken scouts (sitting on my Blitz) but misses his shots, then puts his Demolishers on Overwatch. I land my Landing Craft near his blitz, sniping out his Demolishers' hydra with lascannon fire. He advances his titan to shoot the lander, knocking it to one health but not killing it. 

I ground attack his titan with my Storm Talons, mistaking his two shields for two blast markers (d'oh!) and not doing much but creating an ad-hoc AA bubble for my wounded Thunderhawk to land in. Next, I believe he put the Thunderbolts on CAP. I fly the Thunderhawk in, instead going for the Titan and killing it with my terminators after he loses a Thunderbolt to AA fire and fails to kill the Thunderhawk. Remaining Terminators consolidate onto the Blitz, using the super-heavy to block line of fire from the Demolisher overwatch. Meanwhile the Death Company have limped onto one of his objectives.

At endgame, his Baneblade failed to rally, leaving me with his Blitz and one other objective for a very narrow win. 



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- Furioso Dreadnoughts are a very interesting unit and feel pretty pivotal in how to get the hitting power you need. Cheap for what they do, but the problem is what you do the round after you drop pod/fly them in. Stormravens feel too expensive to justify flying them in. Considering double-fist Furioso hitting power the drawbacks here feel right.

- Not sure how I feel about Death Company - super strong hitting power but adding the DC dreads risks making them your BTS and they're probably getting one good hit total. Maybe just 300 for four is the way to go, but they might be a liability. Possibly heretical, but must these be compulsory?

- Baal Predators: Hard to think how you get good use of these. Tempting to bring melta Infernuses in a Landing Craft, because otherwise it's a 275 point unit not doing anything useful Turn 1 when everyone else wants to be alpha striking.

I might play another game or two before experimenting with dismounted assault marines or fire raptors, so I can be sure I've got a good feel, but here are some statlines:

Mounted Assaults: as an additional option to the existing Assault Marine unit
- Units of 6 Assault Marines may reduce their speed to 15cm and lose Jump Packs in exchange for Transport vehicles and a reduction by -25 points

Fire Raptor Gunships:
Cost: 275
Unit Size: 2
Type: AC
Movement: Bomber
Save: 3+
FF: N/A
CC: N/A
Weapons:
- Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon: 30cm 2x AP3+/AT5+ FxF
- Hellstrike Missiles: 30cm 2x AT4+
- Quad Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP5+/AA5+, Left
- Quad Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP5+/AA5+, Right

Compared to a Marauder, it's got better initiative, better save, and longer ranged but one-sided defensive guns. Probably deals more damage to an individual target, but it can't put two blast markers across multiple units.


I'll probably play Blood Angels again soon and post another battle report. Any thoughts are very welcome.

I ran the above two profiles in a game today against a developmental Vraks Traitor list.

Blood Angels:
- Death Company, 2 Dread (Drop Pods): 450
- Dismounted Assaults (Drop Pods): 225
- Assaults, Chaplain, 2 Furioso Dreads (in Thunderhawk): 350
- Terminators, 2 Furioso Dreads, Supreme Commander (in Lander): 550 [BTS]
- Scouts, 2 Lazerback: 200
- Land Speeders: 200
- Strike Cruiser: 200
- Thunderhawk: 200
- Fire Raptors: 275
- Landing Craft 250

Vraksian Renegades:
- Militia HQ (bunch of infantry without mounts, plus mortars) [BTS] 475(?)
- 6 Malcadors (mixed) 425
- 6 Malcadors (mixed) 425
- ~12 rabble, plus mortars ~325
- ~12 rabble, plus mortars ~325
- Disciples of Xaphan (8 infantry with an autocannon, 5+MW firefight, and scout) with 4 Chimeras: 300
- Disciples of Xaphan (as above) with 4 Chimeras: 300
- Hydra Battery (x3) 150
- 8 Alpha Legionnaires with 4 Rhinos, Chaos Lord: 325
- 2 Hellblades 175

(This is an approximation of the list, I'm not 100% sure on the rabble and militia HQ units)

Deployment

I again forced corner deployment and put my Blitz as far back in my corner as possible; opponent put hers far out on the long wing of her deployment zone. I put my two opjectives as far from her Blitz as possible, while she staggered hers with mine along the midline. Some debate was had about what we'd consider our board edges and table halves, but we decided on "where your deployment zone touches the table edge" and "a diagonal line across the table" respectively. I plotted my bombardment and the two Drop Pod units to hit her Blitz, my objective placements having been intended to either split her between two extreme table ends, or force her to pack everything in on the Blitz.

I garrisoned my scouts on the center left and speeders on the center right. She garrisonned almost everything, with some rabble on the extreme end objective, then both Malcador platoons in the middle, each boxed by Disciples of Xaphan units, almost all of which were in cover (this being when I realized they had Scout). Regimental HQ and some rabble went on Blitz guard on her long edge (left flank) while the Alpha Legion (dismounted) sat with the Hydras on her short edge (right flank).


None of my photos are adding correctly, so here's an Imgur folder with pre-game photos, some actions shots, the Landing Zone of Death, and Endgame: https://imgur.com/a/lto2jjr

Turn 1

Blood Angels unsurprisingly win initiative and immediately call in the Cruiser. Orbital bombardment amusingly hurts nobody except the rabble's overseer, but Deathwinds batter both units and the Death Company annihilate the Regimental HQ, killing BTS and SC right off the bat. Disciple overwatch hurts the mounted assault unit dropped.

Vraks activates their left malcadors, shooting up the land speeders but killing only 2/5, failing leadership with the leaderless Rabble when attempting a retain. Blood Angels charge the mounted assaults into them, taking a third casualty but destroying the unit, retaining to have scouts sustain fire into the other Disciple unit but kill only one model because of cover. I considered assaulting but the odds looked very bad between outnumbering, cover, Overwatch and the Disciples' 5+ MW firefights.

Scouts then get clipping charged by rabble, with only one scout model even in range, but amusingly score the only kill and only lose combat by 1, broken but falling back without casualties.

Blood Angels then send Fire Raptors into the Disciples who Overwatched, rolling hot and breaking them. I believe the other Disciples did a Marshal or something minor, or I've gotten some activation ordering wrong.

With all ground activations used I bring in the airplanes - first, the Landing Craft flies in, landing terminators and all shooting up the Hydras (who did no damage with flak), destroying all three. I retain and bring the Assault detachment Thunderhawh in on the Alpha Legion, destroying them with support fire support from the Terminators and Lander but losing half the assault unit.

Vraks sends their second Malcador squadron back, shooting up and killing the landed Thunderhawk (ugh) due to bad saving rolls, and have their bombers pound the broken Scouts, killing everyone but one stand and a razorback.

All Blood Angel units Rally, along with most Vraks units.

Turn 2

I need to do several things, which include:
- Breaking the left Disciple unit
- Shielding my BTS from Malcador fire
- Picking up my BTS for a charge next turn
- Maybe even saving those assault marines to run for an objective

I decide to have the Fire Raptors shoot up the Disciples, but end up one kill short of breaking them. I land the LC in front of the terminators and shoot all its guns into the Disciples and their last Chimera but somehow miss all shots. Bad goes to worse as the Malcadors kill the Lander after another round of awful save rolls, and worse goes to abysmal as the Disciples Marshal, walking in front of the Malcadors so the Terminators can't even double forward to charge the Malcs next turn. Assault marines charge the Disciples but roll abysmally and kill just two with 5x4+ CCs and 3x4+ MWs. Even the terminators shooting them doesn't do much.

Land Speeders zoom over to the broken Disciples but miss all shots, and the Death Company retain but fail two 2+ rolls in a row. Oh boy.

The remaining Rabble unit moves to cover one friendly and one enemy objective. Their Malcadors knock the dismounted assaults down to one remaining stand who breaks and runs. I double my Lazerback+scout over and somehow kill a Malcador, and lastly the Alpha Legion bombers pound the Land Speeders down to one stand.

Despite this ongoing fiasco on my left wing, it becomes apparent that I've taken out both of the Vraks fast ground units (hydras and Alpha Legion) and they've only got one unit near their Blitz; their broken Disciples fail to rally while all of my units succeed, so I revert from "it's so over" to "we are so back" and get ready to cling to the Blitz.

Turn 3

I send my Fire Raptors into the Malcadors at my blitz. I roll ok, but she bombs out on saves and loses two, breaking the unit. Awful game for 4+ Reinforced armor.

My SC unit retains, Sustain Firing into the other Malcador units but they pass all saves.

A hail mary bombing run from the Hellblades fails to hurt the Death Company (although they do break the Land Speeder through BMs). At this point, I've got the Death Company, scout+razorback, and one surviving Mounted Assault marine to hold onto their Blitz, while they don't have any way to kill my BTS or kick my off the Blitz, leading to an extremely weird 2-0 win.


Notes on Units

Mounted Assaults: Just right

I think these were decent - they have a specific job and do it decently. Worse FF and no gun, but better melee and a points discount relative to Tacticals. Opponent didn't take issue with anything.

Assault Marines: Trying out Vanguard Veteran Upgrade?

I bungled the charge slightly by not getting the Thunderhawk into base contact to tank shots, which cost me a dreadnought. Chaplain is probably a bad investment, between all the attacks + supporting fire, better to go with the cheap 300 point version. Still awkward running 4 iffy jump pack marines to bring the two Furioso dreadnoughts who do most of the killing.

I want to try out an Assault Detachment upgrade that gives two Vanguard Veterans (swapping the EA+1 CC for a EA+1 MW CC, all other stats the same) for 75. Unifying the speeds could allow them to do a big reposition, or run away for a Thunderhawk pickup, on Turn 2. Restricting these to an Assault Detachment upgrade avoids stepping on Raven Guard's toes (who take small units of Vanguard Veterans).


Fire Raptors

These had a good game, breaking the one Disciple unit, almost breaking the other, and breaking the Malcadors. The Disciple units are sort of a best-case unit to shoot at, with both AP and AT targets, neither with good saves. The Malcadors rolled badly on saves - they should've taken less than one wound on average.

Opponent thought for 275 they're underpriced. I'm not so sure - they're good at ground attack but have no other uses, and she was extremely light on AA, which were all in one easily-killed unit anyways. Her Helltalons are 175 and just have a 5+ save, but can double as fighters and their bombs ignore cover. If Fire Raptors costed 300 points, I'd probably just bring more Thunderhawks for almost as much shooting but much more utility, being able to pick up + Air Assault and even hold an objective if I plan it a turn in advance.

Death Company

These did their job well, for certain, but I am getting a bit tired of the unit. They exemplify the "one heavy hit and you're done" feeling of much of the BA list, and for 450 they're far from cheap. Being compulsory is a bit of an annoyance, knowing I'll have to build around them no matter what.


Overall

As it is, Blood Angels feel like they fall on their faces very badly on Turn 2 - if you're flying things in, you'll rarely have many activations and can't set up the Assault Marines to land another charge next turn without them getting counterattacked first. Running several Thunderhawks with some ground attack planes opens the possibility for just doing a fly-by on turn one, shooting up vulnerable targets and stretching the opponent out for a hammer blow on turn 2, even if you give up on picking everyone up turn two for a second charge turn three.

It's probably a bit weird to say the list feels weak after winning two games. But one was against a list with several suboptimal choices, and the second was because I unintentionally baited the opponent into ignoring the objectives. Drop Pods followed by aircraft feels like the only possibility for Blood Angels to build into (which does fit their fluff niche, at least!). I wouldn't mind having choices for a more mechanized or conventional ground list supported by air units. Baal Predators feel very overpriced at 275 - I wouldn't mind having an option of Predator Destructors at 225, for example.

Next game, I'll probably rejig the Assaults and drop the land speeders for another Thunderhawk, and possibly try Vanguard Veterans.

The Storm Raven in this list is very overkitted compared to the Kitchen Sink list which seems underkitted.

perhaps a Lascannon in the turret and heavybolters in the nose. So that the weapons fit doesn't "Double dip" into either AP or AT

And the EA Hurricane bolters in this list just seem over the top. Is there any other flyer with a Small arms Extra Attack?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a Storm Raven stl?

For Comparison

From Kitchen Sink

Codex
AV 35cm FF 4+, CC6+, A5+
Twin Assault Cannon, 30cm AP4+/AT4+
Bloodstrike Missiles 30cm AT5+

From This List

Storm Raven Gunship
AV 35cm FF 4+, CC6+, A5+
Twin Assault Cannon, 30cm AP4+/AT4+
Bloodstrike Missiles 30cm AT5+
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+
2x Hurricane Bolters (15cm) Small Arms, EA+1

I am not really sure a dropship needs 3 FF attacks Like a Crusader and Since they have always been only an Option in 40k

I Am however also wondering about if any of the weapons should have an AA Valve since Thunderbricks, Landing Crafts and even the Storm Talon from this list have AA values for The same weapons on a flyer

They're not flyers; They're skimmers.
Your point about balance is fair however. Most folks find them underpowered glass cannons. and/or overpriced so they did get a bump from Kyuiss.

It certainly has trouble as there's not a baseline unit that we can work off of as this is the named variant BA Storm Raven (or should be in the OP).

I think we should put a pin in this here and maybe do some isolation tests of the Stormraven in the Codex list/power structure to work out a base version and then come back here to play within the context of the BA.

2cents

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I believe this list's Storm Raven is FF5+ with 3 attacks, averaging one hit in engagements, not FF4+x3 attacks.

It's in a very awkward position, expensive with short-ranged guns. It's only feasibly worth buying as a transport for models which want to always be in combat (assaults with furiosos) so the guns don't get much use, and as an independent unit of four you waste the dreadnought carrying capacity to take an expensive and fragile close-ranged shooting platform. If you Planetfall it, why not just drop pod and get a deathwind attack? If you drive it around the battlefield, why not just take the rhinos and buy a whole other unit?

I think JimmyZimms suggested earlier that we use split profiles, where one is the transport upgrade and one is the independent strike version. If we dropped the missiles from the former and discounted it to 50 points each it might be more passable. For the latter, we could do weapons as:

- Twin Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP4+
- Twin Lascannon: 45cm AT4+
- Bloodstrike Missiles: 45cm... AT4+? AT5+? 60cm?

If the profile stays as one, for both the independent unit and ones bought as upgrades for infantry, I think we're going to have problems with the split between assault transport and shooting roles - it can only do one per turn, so it might end up being too expensive because it doesn't do either well enough, or too cheap because it does both.

Could you please point to the lists that also include the Raven and what load out version they use

The large scale version has the options of

Forward arc turret
-Twined Cannons Ass, Las, or Plasma, so AP/AT 5+ AT 4+ MW4+
Fix Forward
-Twined Heavy Bolters, Multi Melta or typhoon so AP 4+ MW4+ AP3+/AT5+
-Option of Hurricane Bolters
-(Blood/Storm)Strike missiles

The current Loadout seems to be picking the best options for what the Blood angel list wants to do. So I wonder if anyone has pondered maybe trading out for something that isn't so perfect Like changing from Ass cannons to Las Cannons so it can't double up on AP and justify adjusting the FF value.

I am mainly suggesting considering dropping the Hurricanes so perhaps it can cost less.

But I definitely think no one should consider the other nose options since that's a straight upgrade in EA not a side grade like in the other scale. Except maybe for salamanders because Theme.

On an off topic note is the storm talon should also probably be a skimmer not a flyer since it is a VTOL, That could be the Strike instead of splitting Even though it shares a kit with the definitely a flyer Storm Hawk. It's probably a Vulture not a thunderbolt equivalent.

But that is a thought for perhaps a general Space Marine Flyers Thread.

There are no currently approved lists which use the Stormraven, at least as far as I know. Ordo Xenos does have the Corvus Blackstar, however, which might be a good baseline:

AV
35cm Speed
5+ Reinforced Armour
CC 6+
FF 3+
Twin Assault Cannon (30cm AP4/AT4)
Twin Blackstar Rocket Launcher: 30cm AP3 IC or AT4

Transports 2 infantry, terminators or jump infantry taking both slots. 50 points each.

Even these seem a bit pricy for what they do, and Deathwatch veterans come in smaller and punchier units, making them somewhat more economical to transport.

---

Regarding the Storm Talon, it is currently in the Imperial Fists list, which are tourney-approved. So I think the horse has left the barn on that one. It is worth considering whether we should use marine-specific fliers for Blood Angels (Storm Talon and the Fire Raptor if it's ultimately adopted), or if we should go with Thunderbolts/Marauders like the majority of lists get.

MW4+ is crazy OP mate, especially for a list that is assault orientated. May more ability than a 5+ EA+2 FF ability.



Giving them the Twin Linked Lascannon however would be interesting. The ability to lay some hits on AV with an assault orientated army isn't a bad thing where AT is somewhat lacking. This comes in an expensive eggs-in-one-basket situation which can reduce the balance issues.

But you need to remember that 40k has stupid silly power ranges and mad crazy loadout options so chasing every conceivable bit of customization has no place in a battalion level game like EA (especially with the fact the game supports named variants to give us that flavor in a specific list).


Hurricanes are what dropped the price. They're a FF weapon. Boosting AT would increase the price.


So are Stormeagle and TBricks but they're AC as well. Also it's an established unit so ship has sailed many many years ago. It's an AC. We'll have to live with it. AC are far more valuable than yet another skimmer anyways.

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Yeah I think I referred back to the problems I solved with the TBrick Transporter as well. By not worrying about the fact that, yes they carry the same number of HB and even missiles as the Gunship, they are there as an assault transport so doctrinally they exist as a flying war engine to move heavy armour into CQB. We solved the problem by reducing their shooty attacks and making them a FF based heavy flyer, not because they can't shoot far but because they exist to stick Land Raiders on the back half of the table.

These are basically a flying land raider in how they are getting leveraged in battle in this list. By splitting the roles (aka Named Variants) we could design them for different roles instead of one giant jack of all trades too expensive to use even if in reality they're the same vehicle, they're getting deployed with different mission profiles.

To use a real-life (tm) example: In the 56 suez war, both the Egyptian and Israeli armies used what was fundamentally the same damn tank, the modernized (for the time) M4 sherman. The opposing armies use of each and techniques couldn't be any more different in practice and efficacy however.

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Consensus seems to be that we split the unit, then.

What would you think of them being:

- Stormraven Transport
Upgrade to any infantry but scouts for 50 points each? 75 for the first and 50 for each after?
Move: 35cm
Armor: 5+ Reinforced
CC: 6+
FF: 5+
Twin Assault Cannon: 30cm AP4+/AT4+
Twin Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP4+
2x Hurricane Bolter: Small Arms EA+1
Carries 2 infantry stands (or 1 Terminator) and 1 Dreadnought.
Planetfall

- Stormraven Strike Squadron
250/275/300 points for 4
Move: 35cm
Armor: 5+ Reinforced
CC: 6+
FF: 4+
Twin Lascannon: 45cm AT4+
Twin Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP4+
Twin Bloodstrike Missiles: 60cm AT5+
Planetfall

It's got longer ranged AT shooting to harass vehicles, and then can zoom in for some AP shots as well. Could give it a cyclone missile launcher instead of the twin heavy bolter, if we go for the upper end of the points range.

The Stormraven Strike Squadron is somewhat straightforwardly better than Imperial Guard Vultures, but Vultures seem pretty bad all around, so I don't think being better is a crime.

Yes the MW option is a Hard no like i mentioned and i screwed up Putting in MW for twin plasma not the AP/AT 4+ it should have been.

But i think option is also a hard no.

I think the Raven should stick as a transport and the Gunship option discarded

Replaced instead by Moving the Talon to a skimmer and making the Hawk the fighter Since the Space marine flyer list has been soft retconed

Just for My own edification and to keep them straight

[img=1200x1237]https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101339_SMStormravenGunshipLead.jpg?fm=webp&w=1200&h=1237[/img]

https://wahapedia.ru/wh40k10ed/factions ... en-Gunship
Storm RAVEN is loosely the Valk equivalent

[img=1200x1237]https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101315_StormhawkTalonInterceptorLead.jpg?fm=webp&w=1200&h=1237[/img]

https://wahapedia.ru/wh40k10ed/factions ... on-Gunship
Storm TALON is A VTOL and loosely the Vulture equivalent

[img=1200x1237]https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120101315_SMStormhawkInterceptorLeadNew.jpg?fm=webp&w=1200&h=1237[/img]

https://wahapedia.ru/wh40k10ed/factions ... nterceptor
Storm HAWK is the the Fighter

I Think the Hawk postdates this list and was added in a kit update that made the kit able to make a Talon or a Hawk but i am only loosely familiar with 40k after the Blood angels 5th edition White Dwarf Codex that introduced the Raven

The Stormtalon issue is beyond the scope of Blood Angel development, and already locked in as a flier because of the Imperial Fists list. Focusing on it is just a distraction.

You're free to call it whatever you want and proxy it with another model. I use 30k Xiphons as my marine fliers. But we should focus on Blood Angels units, such as the Stormraven(s), possible Fire Raptor gunship, and others.