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NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmental]

 Post subject: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmental]
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:36 pm 
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I've created a new developmental Net-EA army list to represent the 30k Legiones Astartes – the Space Marines as they fought during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. It's a popular setting for players and the legions fought quite differently from 40k chapters. I'm surprised no one else has created a Net-EA or Epic UK Legiones Astartes list already and after grumbling about the lack of one for years I am now doing so. If we can in time develop an approved tournament list that could attract more cross game interest from Titanicus players and/or Aeronautica SM players. Also there are rumours that GW will be releasing a new version of Epic in future – though set in the 30k time and just imperials mirror matched only and no xenos races. It would be good to have a HH legion army list for Net-EA and Epic UK ready for when the future Epic comes out, as some of the players of it may be up for trying the existing game as well to play a wide range of armies.
Attachment:
Epic 30k Legiones Astartes 0.4.pdf [70.06 KiB]
Downloaded 585 times

This is an initial 0.1 version of the list that will be tweaked based on feedback and playtesting. The forums are very quiet these days but there's a lot of people across the world who would like to see a legion list so I still think/hope it will prove possible to develop it. We have a good local EpicA community of 10 or more players, many of which regularly play at Epic tournaments, which I think will help. I'm developing it as a Net-EA list to get input from players across the world but I hope Epic UK may adopt a version of the list in future too if it succeeds but that isn't my call to make.

Please play this 30k era Legiones list against any existing 40k era tournament approved Net-EA or Epic UK list for testing. Most 40k factions were also around in the 30k time, including limited numbers of Necrons and even some Tyranids, though the Imperium didn't recognise what they were at the time. Tau are the only race it doesn't make sense for a legion list to fight. However if they come up against each other you could assume the Tau here are actually some other high tech faction encountered during the Great Crusade. Or that your Legiones army got lost in transit during an exceptionally unlucky warp jump and have appeared 10,000 years later in the 40k time and then encountered the Tau.

I've made a single generic legion list only but tried to do so in such a way as to allow players of any legion to be able to theme an army following their legion's preferences. It's important for the Legiones Astartes list to have both strengths and weaknesses compared to the core Codex Astartes list. They both need to have valid different themes and list directions and the Legiones list would be a failure if it were written to just be the Codex list plus more options and better stuff.

To give an overview for those not so familiar with 30k compared to the Codex Astartes list the 30k Legiones Astartes list:
- has larger formations on average.
- has more expensive formations on average (and the cheapest formation is 200 points) so the army will generally have less activations.
- has a wider range of powerful war engines but are (along with titans, aircraft and spacecraft) limited to the usual 1/3 of the army.
- the core Tactical formation has no ranged attack (unless upgraded) and there is no cheap upgrade to add a shot (Razorbacks weren't around then).
- includes all the newer space marine aircraft models (so being a good list for people with marine Aeronautica collections to use).
- is a full combined arms force and better allows for tank and/or heavier mechanised armies.
- no option for single Warhounds, only a pair.
- Thunderhawk is in the list as normal but 25 more expensive


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:37 pm 
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Missing units counts as suggestions:
Destroyers – use as Tactical Support or Assault as preferred.
Kratos – use as Sicaran.
Sabre – use as Predator.
Tarantulas – use as Rapiers
Arquitor Bombard – use as Whirlwind.
Kharybdis Assault Claw – use as either Drop Pod or Caestus as you prefer?
Javelin Attack Speeder – use as Legion Land Speeder
Legion Stormblade – use as Glaive.
Legion Malcador – use as Sicaran.
Primarchs – not available as a unit here (sorry!) but you could use yours as one of your objective markers in the opponent's half?

The list currently has 47 different units in, which is just over the previous most in a Net-EA list (46 in LaTD) but somewhat reduced down from the 66 units in the AU 30k list (plus they can also have a wide range of additional allied guard, admech, knights, etc as well on top). More units could potentially be stripped out (Despoilers or Tactical Support come to mind) but you'd lose some distinctive units and also ways to theme the list in ways to represent any of the legions so I’d be reluctant to.

I have been partly inspired by the previous Australian EpicA 30k list and thanks to all those involved in creating that. This list is stripped back and more follows the norms of Net-EA and Epic UK lists, whereas the AU lists added a lot of new extra special rules and obsessively detailed unit options. The Contemptor Dreadnought in this list has a fixed load-out of Assault Cannon and Power Fist for example – as abstracting a generic load-out or two is the norm for Epic Armageddon – whereas the AU Contemptor has 9 different weapon choices on each arm plus an optional carapace missile launcher for an extra +5 points (and each Contemptor in a formation of them can be armed differently). Such detail is unnecessary IMO, slows the game down and makes lists harder to balance. This isn't intended to replace the AU lists, but to try and produce a version more balanced for tournament use and pick up games against other Net-EA or Epic UK lists.

Sorry these intro posts are so long, there was a lot I thought I should mention.

Hope you like the list so far and feedback and playtests are welcome!


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:00 am 
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Looks like a solid start.

Some bits I spotted:

  • Heavy Support Squads have 2 x AP4+/AT5+ for their Missile Launchers, instead of the usual 2 x AP5+/AT6+. I don't know if this is an intentional change.
  • Quad Lascannon mounts aren't consistent. On the Spartan they have no arc and are 2 x AT4+, but on the Falchion/Fellblade/Glaive they have side arcs and are only AT4+ (no 2 x).
  • The Mastodon doesn't have its AA turret. I don't know if this is an intentional change.
  • The Falchion/Fellblade/Glaive/Mastodon criticals feel very harsh on DC4 War Engines, but obviously that's just personal opinion on my end.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:50 am 
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I've uploaded an updated 0.2 version to correct some mistakes picked up already from feedback here, on whatsapp and discord:

Fire Raptor shouldn't have had planetfall.
Terminators should have teleport.
Option to take a variable number of Caestus Assault Rams now as some formations don't need 4.
Mastodon has it's missing AA turret added.
Larger superheavies have the correct 2 x AT4+ for their quad lascannons now.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:01 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback Ian! I've corrected some based on what you said.

I'm unsure how best to represent the Heavy Support squad really. In 40k a Devestator squad has 5 men with 2 heavy weapons whereas in a Heavy Support squad all 5 of 5 men carry a heavy weapon (all the same Heavy weapon). Statting it as 5 individual shots seemed excessive for Epic so I tried statting it as 2 twinned missile launchers as a close-ish approximation. They are costed at 300 rather than 250 for Devs. Open to feedback on them.

edit: actually on second thoughts I might stat them the same as the Squat Thunderers - as they're an exisiting unit that also has 5 heavy weapons per stnd. They are statted with Missile launcher 45cm AP5+/AT6+ and 2 × Multiple Heavy Bolters 30cm AP4+. I'll probably do that in the next update.

I'm thinking to leave the 2DC Spartan and variants without having arcs for it's side guns whereas the large 4DC superheavies do as it's a smaller, faster vehicle and has good fire arcs from the guns at the front sides of the vehicle whereas the larger superheavies side guns are towards the back and more limited in firing angles. Think this is ok? I could add arcs if people are keen for them.

I didn't give any thought to 4DC superheavies dieing on a crit. It is how they are in the AU list and also the Fellblade in the Epic UK and Net-EA Imperial Fists list. I agree that it is quite harsh but I'm inclined to keep it the same for consistency so unlkess there is a global change to the existing Fellblade unit (probably unlikely) it'll probably stay. Mastadon is the only one I might change if needed, though it has acouple of void shields so is safer to start with.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:23 pm 
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Heavy Support - yeah, it's a tricky one. I quite like 4+/5+ as it's twin-linking to represent four of the five weapons. I just wasn't sure if it was intended or a typo. My only concern is that in many common situations it makes them twice as good at shooting, so the points cost might need to be carefully monitored.

Thunderers are slightly different, as they defaulted to five Heavy Bolters rather than five Missile Launchers. Maybe 3 x AP5+/AT6+, or 2 x and a Heavy Bolter?

Spartan - aye, keeps it closer to the Land Raider.

4DC superheavies - as far as I was aware they'd removed crits from them, so that they used the EpicAU 'universal crit' of lose a DC on 1-5, roll a gain on a 6, 1-4 2DC, 5-6 3DC.

I don't think it's a big deal either way, I just have a personal dislike of lethal crits on anything with more than 3DC.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:34 pm 
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Actually Thunderers (in the Epic UK list) are statted with 2 x twin heavy bolter and a single missile launcher. So one more shot that a Dev stand and higher to hits but at the trade off of a shorter range. I think I'll just copy the same for the Heavy Support unit. 30k ones are meant to have all the same weapon in a 5 man squad but I'm ok with a mixed profile as I figure it represents an average across the formation as a whole. Would need to keep an eye on how good they are in testing but 300 feels like a reasonable starting point for costs over the similar Devs.

Ah is that how crits work in Epic AU, I see. Hmm I could consider adjusting it to takes eirher two damage or takes D3 damage instead of one on a crit maybe. Could go either way on leaving this as is or adjusting, I'll think about it and see what others think.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 12:48 pm 
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Thunderers - sorry for not being clear. I didn't mean in EA lists, I meant in the background and in 40k.

What became 'Thunderers' in SM2 (where the models had Heavy Bolters but the unit had generic 'Heavy Weapons') came from the option in 40k to arm a whole unit of Squat Warriors with Heavy Bolters.

Apart from Heavy Bolters, they could only take a single Heavy Weapon, which I'm pretty sure is where the EpicUK stats of 2 x twin HBs and 1 x ML came from.

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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:09 pm 
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First battle report up with the list (game was over a week ago but had some technical problems getting it up) - https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 20#p645720

I have uploaded an updated 0.4 version of the list in the first post above.

Jetbikes proved too potent in our game and have been toned down from having two weapon systems to having a single ‘Triple Heavy Bolters 1 x AP3+’. This also encourages them to shoot on the move more rather than staying still to sustained fire.

Caestus changed to 2 for 150 OR add 4 for 200. I'm effectively charging a premium for 2 as the contents then are deadly tough Terminators while if you're taking 4 it's for Breachers that aren't as deadly.

Terminators have gone up slightly in cost to 375. They're a potent unit and a staple of the Codex Astartes list so I want to differentiate and balance this list more by making them slightly more expensive. Terminators with 4 Land Raiders in this list are 575 (compared to 600 in the CA list) or 525 with 2 Caestus so this list has cheaper options for mechanised Terminators.

Spartan adjusted to carry 3 Terminators since it carries 25 regular marines in 40k.

Heavy Support changed to have 2 x Twin Heavy Bolter and 1 x Missile Launcher. They have the correct 5 heavy weapons now but most of their attacks are range 30cm so they're a bit more limited. It's the exact same weapons as on the Epic UK Squat Thunderers (where also all 5 have a heavy weapon) but with the 4 units costed at 300 rather 200 with them having marine advantages. I know the unit is meant to be armed with 5 of a same heavy weapon but it's intended to abstract across the formation with a range of more short ranged, more AP heavy weapons to what it has.

Typhons and Cerberuses gone back up to 375 as looking over things again I'm concerned I may have priced them a bit too cheaply before.

I have another test game on Thursday. Not much discussion happening here but I've had more feedback on whatsapp, facebook and discord and I have another group in Warsaw up for testing the list too.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:20 pm 
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https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34058

It has been done before mate for epic 40k anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:25 pm 
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I hadn't seen that before but it's for the previous edition of Epic which works very differently, so isn't really that relevent here. This is a list for 4th ed / Epic Armageddon.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2023 12:37 am 
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my bad :)


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:18 pm 
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Just wanted to throw some thoughts into the ring. I'm sympathetic with the desire to par things down, because the 28mm heresy army list is best described as bloated. But I think you're pushing too far into the other direction. At least for me a lot of the appeal of the heresy is being able to break out all the weird, arcane technologies. Volkite, conversion beamers, the goofy variant predator turrets. Does every single option need to be there, in a pick and mix fashion? Probably not. But having heresy-era devastators as identical to 40k-era devastators plus a heavy bolter just feels a bit disappointing. I mean, the only volkite in your entire list currently is the Glaive.

With that whining out of the way, let me make an actual suggestion: for units like predators, dreadnoughts, heavy and tactical support squads, and whatever else I'm forgetting, break them up into three units. Call them anti-personnel, anti-tank, and general purpose (unit name). Then you can have one or maybe two possible loadouts to choose from.

As an example, cooked up on the fly:
AP predator autocannon + 2x heavy bolter OR flamestorm cannon + 2x heavy flamer
AT predator Neutron Laser + 2x lascannon OR heavy conversion beamer + 2x lascannon
General Purpose predator Plasma cannon + 2x heavy bolter OR melta cannon + 2x Lascannon

Then each category could be priced separately, and different upgrades could grant access to different types of unit. It would end up with a tripling of some units, and so a more bloated list. To me it seems streamlined enough to be worth it, but your list, your call.


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 Post subject: Re: NetEA Legiones Astartes 30k Horus Heresy SMs [Developmen
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:59 am 
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Not trying to spam the thread, but I've been thinking about this today, and I put together some suggestions for options that could be available and give more of a Great Crusade era technology feel:

breachers
Sv 3+, FF/CC 4+, Volkite chargers 15 cm, disrupt and (small arms)
This encourages breachers to get close and shoot, but if they get caught in an engagement they're a lot less useful because they don't get disrupt. That seems to me to fit with their 28mm stats, where you want them close and shooting but not necessarily in an assault.

Tactical support squad
Sv 3+, FF 3+ CC 5+, Flamers 15cm Ignore cover or (small arms, ignores cover)
OR
Meltas 15cm MW 5+, or (small arms, MW)
Gives you the classic flamers or a massive pile of meltas.

Heavy Support Squad
Sv 3+, FF 3+, CC 5+
Volkite Culverin 2x 35cm AP 5+ Disrupt
OR
Lascannon 2x 45cm AT 5+
OR
Missile launcher 2x 45cm AP 5+/AT 6+
Gives options for massed heavy weapons not available in the 41st millennium, but each has a clearly defined role.

Predator
Predators with bolter or flamer sponsons have FF 3+

Flamestorm cannon 30cm AP 3+ Ignores cover and (small arms, IC) plus Heavy flamer sponsons 15cm ignores cover and (small arms, ignores cover)
OR
Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+ and 2x Heavy Bolter sponsons 30cm AP 5+
OR
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT 4+ plus 2x Lascannon sponsons 45cm AT 5+
Standard predators, with either an AP, AT, or infantry support bent.

Predator infernus
Plasma destroyer 45cm AP4+/AT4+ plus 2x Lascannon sponson 45cm AT5+
OR
Magna-Melta 30CM MW3+ plus 2x Heavy bolter sponson 30cm AP 5+
Special weapon predators. I assume these would need to be priced a bit higher, but pricing is not my strong suit in the slightest.

Hopefully this is a bit more helpful than whining and vague ideas! ;D


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