I've played 15+ games of epic so far this year but all bar 1 have been at tournaments so I haven't had much opportunity to playtest. I might have an online game or two happening some time though and might see if my opponents are willing to test against a modified WS list with the 4 strong bikers.
There seems to be some misunderstanding of what I'm suggesting with these smaller formation bikers and why. I don't know how familiar you guys are with the WS background but if you read the more recent BL books focusing on them e.g. Scars (which I'd recommend incidentally as it's one of the best of the HH novels I've cherry picked to read) a key tactic they use (both in space and ground battles) is that of feigned retreat. They'll deliberately appear disorganised and weak and flee away to pull their enemies out of position before turning and striking at enemy weak points with more precision and coordination at this than other marines. It's worth mentioning such feigned retreat was a tactic often used by the real world Mongol horse men, who the WS are partly inspired by. Also that though these retreats are feigned it's a challenging tactic and can sometimes go wrong and become a real retreat.
I recognise that 4 strong biker formations would break and flee more but this is a deliberate and appropriate thing not a bug. SM are good at rallying and with their speed and assault range WS bikers could flee to positions outside of 30cm of the enemy but within 35cm so as to be able to rally on a 3+ and assault next turn. Individual biker formations would be less strong but there would be more of them on the table and they'd just have to work together and coordinate their strikes more - again fitting WS background.
Considering WS are known for retreating tactics having one of the two differentiators between epic WS bikers and codex bikers being larger formation sizes so WS bikers flee much less often than normal is utterly inappropriate for their background and 40k rules (this mistake by the designers of the Epic list has been around for a long time but needs to be ditched for the good of the list). I don't feel adopting the Eldar hit and run rule would be appropriate, as this would just allow Attack Bikes to pop in and out of cover to shoot and this kind of sneaky hiding doesn't seem fitting. Giving WS bikers an up to full move consolidation move is a boost for them, but one only applying to where they've won a combat rather than representing their feigned retreat at all.
It depends on what elements from the WS background and 40k rules we choose to represent in their epic rules and which we acknowledge but leave out on our scale. We cover the superior riding skills the WS are known for with walker but don't bother representing the faster bikes they have in their 40k rules or their greater skill at shooting on the move. As an aside if we were to add a new WS special rule to the list a renamed variant of the Dark Eldar fleet of foot special rule (can FF support or be crossfired to when marching) could be appropriate - though definitely applying only to bikes and attack bikes in the list rather than everything. They'd be faster moving and better in attacking on the move then.
I think representing feigned retreat tactics simply by making the formation 4 strong is a simple neat idea worth trying out. 175 point 4 biker formations would allow a slightly higher activation count biker force but the codex list can be maxed out to an even higher activation count at present than that with Scout formations. I'm also proposing removing foot Scouts from the list and replacing them with more thematically appropriate Scout Bikers along with Storm Talons instead of Thunderbolts - both of which would cost 25 points more each and so counteract the effect of the cheaper bikes anyway.
jimmyzimms wrote:
LS Tempests can enter via planetfall. That's their entire schtick when the White Scars invented them in m38. They can do a reliable high altitude insertion, albeit one way, which is why they don't work as an AC,. despite their larger size, wings, and faster speed. Also, WHITESCARS INVENTED THEM. Absolute silliness they don't have them in the WS list
I agree Land Speeder Tempests should be in the list! You've misremembered their background and are otherwise wrong about them - they're designed to provide fast moving fire support but they're no more worthy of having planetfall than any other Land Speeder. They have an extra engine but this is balanced out by the additional weight of the armour and they are no faster than other Land Speeders - both are mentioned in the FW IA books to have the same max speed of 350km/hr. In 40k ALL Land Speeders types can deep strike but this doesn't translate to epic's planetfall, it's more of a controlled glide from high than an extremely fast fall only slowed at the end which justifies the AA avoiding of planetfall. I know epic Raven Guard list has planetfalling Land Speeders but I've always thought this unjustifiable from a background perspective and in any case this should stay part of that list's special stuff rather than being used elsewhere.
