Only for lists where the theme demands it.

Imperial Fists, yes.
Everyone else, probably not.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'd like to chime in on a couple of specifics:
1 The argument that standard Terminators can be used in place of the Assault variant in most circumstances can be flipped on its head to say that Assault Terminators are an example of a well-balanced addition to the lists.
2 Their inclusion in the game helps to provide differentiation between a lot of very similar lists.
3 Background-wise, they do have a distinct battlefield role to standard Terminators (urban/enclosed assault), so if they're proving redundant, it's a failure on our part to match the background.

Ortron makes an excellent summary, and I agree with him to a large extent. I'd summarise my opinion by saying 'variety without undue complexity is the ideal'. Where background and armament suggests a distinct tactical role, there's a good argument for introducing a new 'crunch' unit – as in the distinction between Predator Annihilators (anti-armour) and Destructors (anti-personnel).

Where only one (either background or armament) is the case, I'd leave them as is – for example, if a Conversion Beamer Predator were introduced, I'd suggest such a model was used as a counts-as Annihilator.

Similarly, shoota-armed and slugga-amed boyz are both nicely abstracted to a single statline of small arms.
'Ard boyz (boyz with heavier armour) are insufficiently different in background or armament to regular boyz warrant granting them a tactical difference – background-wise at the scale of Epic commanders, they're both tackled with the same armaments and tactics. Conversely, Mega-armoured orks would warrant a difference, as they have a different battlefield role, and require different armaments and tactics for an enemy (background) Commander to deal with.

It's also worth remembering that personal playstyle and preference favour different units. As-is, Assault Terminators are slightly more specialised – some prefer that for the efficiency, others prefer standard Terminators for their slightly better flexibility. The reductio ad absurdem of removing options could end up with us abstracting the game too far, in my opinion; though I agree the Assault Terminators are a borderline case.

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Industrious, red-robe wearing member of the PCRC

Well I think they have their place with BT and IF's. Other than that no. I agree that the 8 x 3+(or 2+) MW seems over the top.

How about seperating the two weapons mentioned earlier let one give +1 regular attack and the other +1 MW attack (at CC 3+)? A second, less attractive, alternative could be to give them the +2 MW but lower the CC to 4+.

Just for interest out of 156 Codex marine lists in the Epic-UK database 143 have Terminators in them, 152 have Thunderhawks.

8(9) MW out of a T'hawk sounds like a problem to me!

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@MephistonAG for all sorts of twitter madness

Yup. I can't actually see a list other than IF that actually use them as an iconic unit. The IF "Titan Hammer" formations are well known and pretty much a Dornian thing and even then rare outside the Fists themselves. Its rather one of those units/formations that make them what they are.

While there's plenty of Assault Terminators around, they tend to not be fielded as a dedicated squad vs specialist teams. I should point out also that the preeminent CC specialist are the Scions of Sanguinius and that CC weapons were first introduced as BA fluff for space Hulk add-on but they don't need to be there for theme reasons. Basically it's such a specialized unit that it's not going to get abused in too many lists. I find the whole THawk scenario a bag-a-tell as they probably shouldn't be in an air assault list to start with for theme/balance reasons. Even the BT which IIRC are the only other places they show up don't really work and would be better as a leaders retinue than a general unit.

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Well you know my predilection for ranged weapons ... ... but we also know GW's predilection for close combat and their ratings/rules ... Of course in the Army we always left our M16s, M60 MGs, etc., etc. in the arms room and carried bayonets, machetes along with knives from the mess hall and hammers from the motor pool ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Well look at that! I guess (without knowing, CANNOT take credit there!) I have been "house rule" playing them as EA+2 all along!

Hehe oops?!

So I guess that puts them at about 6 games by my count as playtested with EA+2 and I can DEFINITELY assert that at CC2+ EA+2, they land way more hits (was using the CC 2+ correctly as listed in the army list, after all) than regular termies and it DOES feel obscene -- both on the giving and the getting. The only thing I found that countered them were skimmers (since they cannot hit them!)

This week, I will playtest them (because I like having them as an OPTION) with EA+2 but only CC 3+ rather than CC 2+.

I get that they are "twin-linked" (hammer and claws) hence the rationale behind pushing from 3+ to 2+ on the CC stat; however, having played them (accidentally) this way, I would wager $ that they would actually be more fun to play as EA+2 and CC3+ instead (for both sides of the table.)

Additionally, I'll play them the way designed (oops, sorry!) with EA+1 and CC 2+ to compare.

I'll give it a whirl this week and let you know.

After a quick theorycrafting Math check, if we want to preserve balance and let Tactical Terminators be free upgraded to Assault Terminators, then Assault Terminators are balanced just the way they are in the army list with CC2+ and EA+1 -- that is from a purely Math perspective (someone check my Math!) and not at all a game balance based on actual situational use (like getting shot at from ranged or 4 units of assault terminators trying to kill Tau skimmers by drooling on them!)

** Recommend you stop reading unless you like Math and like "grins and giggles" theorycrafting! **
For grins and giggles, ran some Math scripts against this (for those of us that love Math and scripting!):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-pln3XuJnjZVXJFY1Ffb2IwUGc/edit?usp=sharing

So to answer the question of whether Assault Terminators CC 2+ and EA +1 are sufficiently different (in outcome, not tactical application) than Tactical Terminators CC 3+ and EA +1, the Math answer is that they average out to same number of Normal hits and same number of MW Hits.

A-Termies running CC 3+ and EA +2 have slightly more MW hits than T-Termies (same number of Normal hits though on average).

A-Termies sporting CC 2+ and EA+2 have more than double MW hits on average than T-Termies.

Dark Angels Deathwing is fairly iconic, I think.

In that list, you can add a few Assault Terminators to get a 4 or 6 terminator formation, 2 or 4 of these being Assault Terminators. They have FF-/CC2+, EA+1MW and Inv Save, which seems appropriate enough to me for a free swap.

They don't average out to the same number of hits, they round to the same number.... not quite the same thing, taking the difference in the number of hits between assault and regular terminators gives 0.66 more hits for the assault variant, which we could round up to 1, so the real difference is ~2 times out of 3 you'll get an extra MW hit, and probably an extra non-MW hit

Personally I find regular terminators to be assault beasts as they are, the assault terminators are a bit nastier still, but with much more limited flexibility and utility, the aforementioned weakness against skimmers, vulnerability to being engaged in a FF, lack of ability to prep or support engagements etc etc.

In the IF list they don't have access to thunderhawks either and while their use in the context of that list is beyond the scope of this thread, I find them to be a pale imitation of their former selves without a thunderhawk to ferry them around in...

The comparison to the LR and pred variants is a little apples to oranges in my book, terminators are an assault formation as they are, assault terminators don't fulfil a different role on the battlefield, they're just a little better in assaults (and worse at everything else) whereas hunting armour or infantry are pretty different tasks which the different types of pred excel at

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Every unit in a list is context-specific / dependent. I agree that without a Thunderhawk, Assault Termies are pretty limited. Maybe give them a hefty points discount to compensate?

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
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Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

In a list without Air Options (i.e. Imperial Fists) they'd need to be cheap as they're not quite worth it as-is but as said earlier, their iconic formation along the lines of the BA Sanguinary Guard. Not to get too down in the weeds but I do think the presence of an additional stand in the IF list would even it out for me. I've taken them twice in games and been somewhat pleased with them though I've gotten curb stomped as an army repeatedly. editorial comment: that's more due to my in-abilities as a general as opposed to Kyuss' good work on the list.

In an air-assault capable list they'd need to be reigned in or cut all together OR a specialized 0-1 or 2 stand upgrade to termies (more like I guess the DA which I didn't remember that had them). If they disappeared all together from most lists I'd not shed a tear, however as I feel they'd actually be a one or two addition to a standard Terminator squad at 40k level and I'd rather see a list specific CC upgrade ability (like a lightweight character) for those lists to better abstract them.

tl;dr

Assault Termies as a dedicated formation/unit type in Imperial Fists I can get behind. Not as much in other lists where they'd abstract out at Epic scale I think or would be OK as an upgrade

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I completely agree with Jimmy. They are definitely iconic in an IF list, not so much so in other lists. Something should be done to balance them out, however, if they don't have access to Thunderhawks.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

So a further question, should IF Terminators be allowed Tactical Terminators as an option for the player?

So far I lean towards making Assault Termies an optional replacement to Tactical Termies in all lists who use them, rather than cutting them completely.

Unless we get a majority of players calling for EA+2 this wasn't on the cards.

+1 -- a fan of this approach. Tactical Termies are a fun part of the SM army and a mainstay cornerstone (as data showed by MephistonAG 143/156 armies). Would hate to see players penalized with "taking away your Termie toys and giving you this less-than-the-same in their place."



+1 +1 +1 !!!! -- Can be a free swap just like attack bikes for bike units.



-1 -- they feel too over the top with the number of hits that land. would suck being on the receiving end of one formation let alone two.